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  1. #10906
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Unfortunately, the electorial map for the Senate doesn't favor the Democrats like it does the R's, so we just don't have the room to play with like they do. It took winning both of Arizona and Georgia just to get the slimmest of margins that we do have. Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin are 2020 blue states with at least one red Senator, but WV we already know about, MT isn't going full blue in the Senate, I doubt Ohio is, and Susan Collins was just somehow reelected in Maine. Every other state has unified delegations. It's the smallest split in over 100 years.

    The biggest danger is putting pressure on these unsafe seats and they either lose, or change parties - either of which flips control, and then we're back to Mitch making sure nothing gets done.
    That's where we differ though, I'm not as focused on playing a team game to win next elections map. I am focused on policy/politicians that are better for America long term. I think playing these games over and over is what turns off so many voters, settling for the lesser of two evils. Constantly defending bad politicians just because they have a D next to their name doesn't do anyone any good. In fact it only gives them more power as we are seeing Manchin take advantage of now, he is in control it would seem on negotiating over how many dems from POTUS to house to senate? Is that really who you want dictating how we move forward as a country because you are scared to put on pressure?

    It's a risk, no doubt. I would take it though, see if he caves. If he doesn't then sure you can take what you can get, I understand that.

    Politicians/the two parties seem to constantly use lesser of two evils as an excuse for being a little evil if you will. It has spiraled into... Well we saw the last POTUS. I really would prefer we try something else.

  2. #10907
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I mean in the same general way, people who think a certain way might often do it due to their fears. You bash other beliefs without taking the same approach of respecting their thoughts/potential fears at all really I feel. It isn't even just republicans, I think you were bashing libertarians in a different thread with dbroncos. Why not respect that many of them fear big government? Why not respect the fears about election security? Why not respect fears about the border? I am not gonna search every thread looking for gotchas. I actually disagree that fears of people should simply be respected if that is truly what you were getting at.

    Democrats can call him out, you can call him out. They can help raise funds or promote individuals to run against him. You don't just have to blindly support and make excuses for him you wouldn't others.

    I never said he is corrupt for voting the way they elected him to vote, nice strawman though. I did note a few things though related to possible corruption...
    https://theintercept.com/2021/06/16/...ors-no-labels/
    https://www.opensecrets.org/news/202...pipen-scandal/
    https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/10121...s-climate-push
    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...l-baron-stocks

    We can go on, Katie Porter among others have pointed out issues with him catering to certain lobbyists/donors too. This isn't something new and your strawman isn't going to negate there are real questions about his motives due to his history.
    1. So long story short you don't have anything remotely comparable so you are generalizing my point.

    2. Somehow you're trying to manipulate me in one instance empathising with people who fear for losing their ability to make an honest wage with me criticizing anyone ever. You are dancing like a ballerina trying yo make same awkward connection between me trashing libertarianism vs me defending people worried about how they're going to have a decent standard of living.

    3. Nothing I said is a strawman. You are the one trying to build off this one opinion a whole ideological system that I never ascribed to.

    4. I never said respect every fear every voter ever has. Stop being an obtuse *******. If you want my opinion ask for it. I'm more than willing to share. Just try not to be such a douche.

  3. #10908
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think a senator should do what is best for his state, I think taking climate change seriously is good for every state. Do you?

    You can call him out instead of trying to defend him for starters. Democrats can continuously call him out, censure him. They can give support and work to get someone else to run against him.
    I think he should be politically tactful.

    Every Dem that ***** on him only makes his seat safer.

    Oh you wanna censure him. Guess who is switching parties now?

    Yeah you're going to get a further left Den to win a state that voted like 75% for Trump. ****ing stellar plan dude.

  4. #10909
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    That's where we differ though, I'm not as focused on playing a team game to win next elections map. I am focused on policy/politicians that are better for America long term. I think playing these games over and over is what turns off so many voters, settling for the lesser of two evils. Constantly defending bad politicians just because they have a D next to their name doesn't do anyone any good. In fact it only gives them more power as we are seeing Manchin take advantage of now, he is in control it would seem on negotiating over how many dems from POTUS to house to senate? Is that really who you want dictating how we move forward as a country because you are scared to put on pressure?

    It's a risk, no doubt. I would take it though, see if he caves. If he doesn't then sure you can take what you can get, I understand that.

    Politicians/the two parties seem to constantly use lesser of two evils as an excuse for being a little evil if you will. It has spiraled into... Well we saw the last POTUS. I really would prefer we try something else.
    I mean.. you can call it a team game, but which of those teams are going to enact policies that are better for America long term?


    At the end of the day, we don't have a "something else" to try. This system is two parties by default. If it's not Democrats and Republicans it's Whigs and Federalists, or Federalists and Democrat-Republicans. The names have changed, parties have died out and others have replaced them, but it's always just been two. There's a reason Washington is the only President to not be a member of a major party. Even the self-professed libertarians in Congress are Republicans, because they know they'd be alone on an island otherwise.

    And we can say that we should change it, but that would take a Constitutional Amendment. Do you see that happening right now? We watched people live on TV break into the Capitol buildings and Republicans were spinning lies about that while it was still happening. Any change is going to be torn down as an "attack on Democracy" or trying to "change the American ways" or be condemned for not properly fellating the Founding Fathers. For better or worse, this is what we have right now, and we're a long way from being able to change it. Christ, we can't even have an election anymore without someone claiming it was stolen before the polls even close.


    But as I said, I don't want Manchin to be in this position of power, which is why I want to make his vote irrelevant. Let him keep a seat blue in a deep red state, and then he can mope about and be ignored when we get **** done without him.


    "`Can you explain this gap in your resume?`

    `Well, the vaccinated hosts on the news channel I like convinced me to resign to protest my work's vaccine mandate and take a few years off to help extend the pandemic”" - @LOLGOP

  5. #10910
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    1. So long story short you don't have anything remotely comparable so you are generalizing my point.

    2. Somehow you're trying to manipulate me in one instance empathising with people who fear for losing their ability to make an honest wage with me criticizing anyone ever. You are dancing like a ballerina trying yo make same awkward connection between me trashing libertarianism vs me defending people worried about how they're going to have a decent standard of living.

    3. Nothing I said is a strawman. You are the one trying to build off this one opinion a whole ideological system that I never ascribed to.

    4. I never said respect every fear every voter ever has. Stop being an obtuse *******. If you want my opinion ask for it. I'm more than willing to share. Just try not to be such a douche.
    1. As was already covered, your point was a generalization about respecting their fear. It's BS imo.

    2. I am noting that many people have fear on many issues, it doesn't make it legitimate or worth respecting. I think you understand that when it isn't a democrat involved. I am not dancing around for a connection, you just seem incapable of understanding the point for some reason. I tried using a connection to something else as an example but you still just seem not to get a pretty basic point.

    3. "Good luck convincing them that Manchin is corrupt for voting the way they elected him to vote." Please quote exactly where it is I said this. I can wait for a while on that because I know that I pointed out and have now even linked many examples of issues with him regarding potential corruption. Funny how you didn't respond to any of the actual examples or links either.

    4. You call me an obtuse something then tell me to try not to be a douche... Lol.
    Anyways of course you don't respect every fear, that is part of my point. You seem to claim we should respect the fear of his constituents though. Why should their fears be respected and not others?

  6. #10911
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    This mid-term will be fun.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  7. #10912
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    I think he should be politically tactful.

    Every Dem that ***** on him only makes his seat safer.

    Oh you wanna censure him. Guess who is switching parties now?

    Yeah you're going to get a further left Den to win a state that voted like 75% for Trump. ****ing stellar plan dude.
    Hmmm you did not answer the question, interesting.

    As I told Nate I am far less concerned with losing one seat in one election than others seem to be. I think continuing with the same old sure sounds like a stellar plan too!

  8. #10913
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    1. As was already covered, your point was a generalization about respecting their fear. It's BS imo.

    2. I am noting that many people have fear on many issues, it doesn't make it legitimate or worth respecting. I think you understand that when it isn't a democrat involved. I am not dancing around for a connection, you just seem incapable of understanding the point for some reason. I tried using a connection to something else as an example but you still just seem not to get a pretty basic point.

    3. "Good luck convincing them that Manchin is corrupt for voting the way they elected him to vote." Please quote exactly where it is I said this. I can wait for a while on that because I know that I pointed out and have now even linked many examples of issues with him regarding potential corruption. Funny how you didn't respond to any of the actual examples or links either.

    4. You call me an obtuse something then tell me to try not to be a douche... Lol.
    Anyways of course you don't respect every fear, that is part of my point. You seem to claim we should respect the fear of his constituents though. Why should their fears be respected and not others?
    No it wasn't. I very specifically pointed out what fear I was talking about.

    You are confusing my point with the cowardly way you tried to trap me in your BS question you ****in worm.

  9. #10914
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Hmmm you did not answer the question, interesting.

    As I told Nate I am far less concerned with losing one seat in one election than others seem to be. I think continuing with the same old sure sounds like a stellar plan too!
    Well at least you admit to not really having any tact or plan in how you want the Dems to react. Just whatever makes you feel better I guess!

  10. #10915
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    I mean.. you can call it a team game, but which of those teams are going to enact policies that are better for America long term?


    At the end of the day, we don't have a "something else" to try. This system is two parties by default. If it's not Democrats and Republicans it's Whigs and Federalists, or Federalists and Democrat-Republicans. The names have changed, parties have died out and others have replaced them, but it's always just been two. There's a reason Washington is the only President to not be a member of a major party. Even the self-professed libertarians in Congress are Republicans, because they know they'd be alone on an island otherwise.

    And we can say that we should change it, but that would take a Constitutional Amendment. Do you see that happening right now? We watched people live on TV break into the Capitol buildings and Republicans were spinning lies about that while it was still happening. Any change is going to be torn down as an "attack on Democracy" or trying to "change the American ways" or be condemned for not properly fellating the Founding Fathers. For better or worse, this is what we have right now, and we're a long way from being able to change it. Christ, we can't even have an election anymore without someone claiming it was stolen before the polls even close.


    But as I said, I don't want Manchin to be in this position of power, which is why I want to make his vote irrelevant. Let him keep a seat blue in a deep red state, and then he can mope about and be ignored when we get **** done without him.
    Democrats imo as a whole are pushing more positive policy.

    I am not saying that it isn't a two party system. I am saying we need to stop supporting people because "they can beat the other side" and little else. It is quite literally part of what lead to Trump imo. I think continuing that approach is also a risk because it just ends up in a back and forth culture war/finger pointing. Improve team democrat, even if it is a risk in the short term. That's what I am saying should be the goal.

  11. #10916
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    No it wasn't. I very specifically pointed out what fear I was talking about.

    You are confusing my point with the cowardly way you tried to trap me in your BS question you ****in worm.
    You haven't proven how the initial bill would force WV constituents to "be left without opportunity to make an honest living". As I noted plenty of people may have fears they feel are legitimate about tons of topics. It doesn't just make it worth respecting though if you say you have X fear. It needs to be something clearly proven a lot of times for others to respect it.

    Lol I am not surprised you can't respond to a lot of what I say. Then call me a worm. Do you realize you keep projecting what you do in your posts onto me?

  12. #10917
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Democrats imo as a whole are pushing more positive policy.

    I am not saying that it isn't a two party system. I am saying we need to stop supporting people because "they can beat the other side" and little else. It is quite literally part of what lead to Trump imo. I think continuing that approach is also a risk because it just ends up in a back and forth culture war/finger pointing. Improve team democrat, even if it is a risk in the short term. That's what I am saying should be the goal.
    The problem is, as you pointed out earlier, Trump or someone Trump-like is part of that risk.

    But, I also think it's possible to improve it by relegating Manchin to irrelevancy. Keep the seat, don't have to deal with whatever would come out of West Virginia in his place (I assume just a sentient lump of coal named Mason Maga), and who gives a **** what he does or doesn't want otherwise.


    "`Can you explain this gap in your resume?`

    `Well, the vaccinated hosts on the news channel I like convinced me to resign to protest my work's vaccine mandate and take a few years off to help extend the pandemic”" - @LOLGOP

  13. #10918
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Well at least you admit to not really having any tact or plan in how you want the Dems to react. Just whatever makes you feel better I guess!
    What do you mean? Just because you are having issues responding to what I say doesn't mean it hasn't been explained.

    I want them to put pressure on those within holding back progress like Manchin/Sinema. Censure, call out, possibly support others to run against them etc. it has been covered. That's how I want them to react.

  14. #10919
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    The problem is, as you pointed out earlier, Trump or someone Trump-like is part of that risk.

    But, I also think it's possible to improve it by relegating Manchin to irrelevancy. Keep the seat, don't have to deal with whatever would come out of West Virginia in his place (I assume just a sentient lump of coal named Mason Maga), and who gives a **** what he does or doesn't want otherwise.
    Yup which is why I highly doubt we see much of that immediately even if I wish we would.

    Maybe. The more you compromise and cater to people like him though the harder it is to gain support needed for larger change. You lose voters over time as they realize little is ever actually changing despite the promises.

  15. #10920
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You haven't proven how the initial bill would force WV constituents to "be left without opportunity to make an honest living". As I noted plenty of people may have fears they feel are legitimate about tons of topics. It doesn't just make it worth respecting though if you say you have X fear. It needs to be something clearly proven a lot of times for others to respect it.

    Lol I am not surprised you can't respond to a lot of what I say. Then call me a worm. Do you realize you keep projecting what you do in your posts onto me?
    Pivot away to another thing I never said. I never defended Manchkns vote. My literal points were.

    1. We shouldn't conclude corruption without a lot of evidence.

    2. I understand and empathize and respect with their fears in this scenario.

    That doesn't mean I agree with Manchins vote
    That doesn't mean I'm OK with every fear someone ever has swaying their vote.

    So again. Stop assuming my position. You ****in pathetic clown.

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