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  1. #10891
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    I can agree with this statement. Manchin was voted for by the people of West Virginia and is only doing what is best for his constituents.
    Well I wouldn’t say he’s doing what’s best for them. But he is doing what they’ve been convinced is best for them. If he opposes the wealth tax on billionaires, it won’t be because he’s representing the people. West Virginia has between 1-5 billionaires. That means 1.7M people will not be affected by that wealth tax and 1-5 MIGHT.

  2. #10892
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Manchin also is in West Virginia where his constituents are very pro coal.

    Maybe you're right and he's purely corrupt. But I think we have to be aware that West Virginia is as pro coal as it gets. Not only point toward corruption.

    These people don't want to be left without an opportunity to make an honest living. And we should try and respect that.
    W. Virginia, his state is also one of he poorest in the Union and correct me if I am wrong, that is were striking coal miners don't have his support due to his connection with the coal industry. Yes, it is a coal mining state but their workers aren't to happy with the mining industry.

    Then considered how some of the programs he nixed would had help the working poor and elderly, bread and butter issues always matter to every worker. Now a lot of people in these hard times really, really, really could use those benefits. To be able to stay at home to care for a ailing relative with job security and pay looks real good during a pandemic where the hostipals are being overwhelm off and on.

    Come on guy we are the only western country that don't have family/medical care.
    Last edited by WES445; 10-28-2021 at 12:14 AM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  3. #10893
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    How do you do that? If you can't pass good things for the public to gain more support due to... Manchin.

    I think the answer is you go hard at the problem. Manchin and Sinema. Ostracize and attack them like you would if they held something like this up but had an R next to their name. Don't just give in to bad people/nonsense because you view it as a team game and they are Dems. Apply as much pressure as you possibly can, including primaries, until they do what is best for the country.

    You keep saying get more democrats elected but it's people like Manchin that also make that tougher when they do this to stop positives to point out to voters. He is not only hurting the bill and American people but also likely affecting future elections for the party.
    I mention that a month ago, and got called a revolutionary. Even suggested Biden going to his state and attack his stance to his base, but he keep ensuring us Manchin is a good fellow.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  4. #10894
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    This is such a general obvious trap question.

    My only point here is we shouldn't immediately accuse Manchin of corruption when he could just be appealing to his constituents.

    And yes even if I disagree with them. Or might think they're naive. I feel empathy towards people who fear a living middle class wage isn't a viable opportunity anymore.
    It's only a trap if there is hypocrisy, that is what I was trying to find out though. If you were consistent or not.

    I feel empathy towards plenty people I disagree with too, it doesn't mean I necessarily respect the fear they have or politician using said fear as an excuse to push bad policy or deny good policy. Many people get tricked via media, corrupt politicians etc. to fear things they shouldn't and I rarely see others "respecting" it in other scenarios, posters on this board for example.

    As for Manchin, maybe he deserves corruption to come up like many other politicians. Instead of looking for every reason to deflect blame maybe we should hold him to similar standards we do others. I don't even just mean his families ability to profit, we can talk about leaked call in the past. Meeting with certain lobbyists on a regular basis also isn't a great look given the topic. If there is clear evidence he is doing good things, share it but otherwise I think he should be held accountable like you would anyone else holding up positive policy for the country.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 10-28-2021 at 12:27 AM.

  5. #10895
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It's only a trap if there is hypocrisy, that is what I was trying to find out though. If you were consistent or not.

    I feel empathy towards plenty people I disagree with too, it doesn't mean I necessarily respect the fear they have or politician using said fear as an excuse to push bad policy or deny good policy. Many people get tricked via media, corrupt politicians etc. to fear things they shouldn't and I rarely see other "respecting" it in other scenarios with posters on this board for example.

    As for Manchin, maybe he deserves corruption to come up like many other politicians. Instead of looking for every reason to deflect blame maybe we should hold him to similar standards we do others. I don't even just mean his families ability to profit, we can talk about leaked call in the past. Meeting with certain lobbyists on a regular basis also isn't a great look given the topic. If there is clear evidence he is doing good things, share it but otherwise I think he should be held accountable like you would anyone else holding up positive policy for the country.
    It's a trap because you are trying to set me up by answering a way too generalized question. Instead of just being upfront in honest with your inquiry.

    I just don't think corruption should be the automatic answer. Before there is substantial proof.

    Held accountable for what? An unproven claim of corruption? Okay lol.

  6. #10896
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    W. Virginia, his state is also one of he poorest in the Union and correct me if I am wrong, that is were striking coal miners don't have his support due to his connection with the coal industry. Yes, it is a coal mining state but their workers aren't to happy with the mining industry.

    Then considered how some of the programs he nixed would had help the working poor and elderly, bread and butter issues always matter to every worker. Now a lot of people in these hard times really, really, really could use those benefits. To be able to stay at home to care for a ailing relative with job security and pay looks real good during a pandemic where the hostipals are being overwhelm off and on.

    Come on guy we are the only western country that don't have family/medical care.
    I don't disagree with you Wes. You know I want those things for Americans too.

    I'm just saying let's be reasonable with our accusations. And again. You could very well be right. And Manchin could be just doing his donors bidding. But he could also be doing what his base wants too.

  7. #10897
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    I mention that a month ago, and got called a revolutionary. Even suggested Biden going to his state and attack his stance to his base, but he keep ensuring us Manchin is a good fellow.
    There is obviously some balancing to be done here, if Manchin was serious about compromise and tweaking to fit constituents that would be different than what has been playing out. I fully understand hearing him out initially along with Sinema. I just think at some point it needs to be acknowledged what is going on and treat those responsible like you would anyone else holding up good policy or playing on certain fears etc. if they weren't in a particular party.

  8. #10898
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    It's a trap because you are trying to set me up by answering a way too generalized question. Instead of just being upfront in honest with your inquiry.

    I just don't think corruption should be the automatic answer. Before there is substantial proof.

    Held accountable for what? An unproven claim of corruption? Okay lol.
    Well your statement was pretty generalized itself... I asked my question based on the statement you made.

    Held accountable for holding up policy that is good for the country. You would normally bash republicans for doing that from what I have seen. You take a different approach when a dem does it though it seems.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 10-28-2021 at 12:43 AM.

  9. #10899
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    How do you do that? If you can't pass good things for the public to gain more support due to... Manchin.

    I think the answer is you go hard at the problem. Manchin and Sinema. Ostracize and attack them like you would if they held something like this up but had an R next to their name. Don't just give in to bad people/nonsense because you view it as a team game and they are Dems. Apply as much pressure as you possibly can, including primaries, until they do what is best for the country.

    You keep saying get more democrats elected but it's people like Manchin that also make that tougher when they do this to stop positives to point out to voters. He is not only hurting the bill and American people but also likely affecting future elections for the party.
    I agree, and Arizona Democrats looking to censure Sinema is a step in the right direction. It's also safer to do to her than it is to **** around with Manchin, given the politics of West Virginia. Hopefully it's a sign that she'll be primaried and we can move that seat to a Democrat that will actually do something, though.

    Beyond that, though, I think you have to pass what you can, and do a lot of campaigning on this is what more we can accomplish without being hamstrung by the narrow margin and this is what the Republicans want to take away from you. They should be talking about the Child Tax Credit all the ****ing time. Three million kids lifted out of poverty is a thing you shout from the rooftops.


    But we also need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot, too. I'm fine with Manchin as a lesser evil, because he is absolutely a lesser evil than any other Republican we're going to get from West Virginia; I also want to make him irrelevant. Let him vote against bills that we know are going to pass without his support any way so he can tell the hill folk "I'm not partisan, I stood up to the Democrats on helping you keep all your teeth" or whatever they're upset about next.

    The infrastructure bills aren't going to be what we wanted them to be, but we need to look at them as a beginning and not an end. "This is what we've done, now help us do more" instead of "this isn't good enough so you get nothing."


    "`Can you explain this gap in your resume?`

    `Well, the vaccinated hosts on the news channel I like convinced me to resign to protest my work's vaccine mandate and take a few years off to help extend the pandemic”" - @LOLGOP

  10. #10900
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Well your statement was pretty generalized itself... I asked my question based on the statement you made.

    Held accountable for holding up policy that is good for the country. You would normally bash republicans for doing that from what I have seen. You take a different approach when a dem does it though it seems.
    Based on what comparison exactly? Where have I done this? Please show me the comparable instance of me doing this because I'd bet the house you can't find one.

    Who holds him accountable? Because only the voters of West Virginia can do that. Who dont vote for Dems.

    Good luck convincing them that Manchin is corrupt for voting the way they elected him to vote. Sounds like a killer strategy bro.
    Last edited by MRSpock; 10-28-2021 at 01:12 AM.

  11. #10901
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    I agree, and Arizona Democrats looking to censure Sinema is a step in the right direction. It's also safer to do to her than it is to **** around with Manchin, given the politics of West Virginia. Hopefully it's a sign that she'll be primaried and we can move that seat to a Democrat that will actually do something, though.

    Beyond that, though, I think you have to pass what you can, and do a lot of campaigning on this is what more we can accomplish without being hamstrung by the narrow margin and this is what the Republicans want to take away from you. They should be talking about the Child Tax Credit all the ****ing time. Three million kids lifted out of poverty is a thing you shout from the rooftops.


    But we also need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot, too. I'm fine with Manchin as a lesser evil, because he is absolutely a lesser evil than any other Republican we're going to get from West Virginia; I also want to make him irrelevant. Let him vote against bills that we know are going to pass without his support any way so he can tell the hill folk "I'm not partisan, I stood up to the Democrats on helping you keep all your teeth" or whatever they're upset about next.

    The infrastructure bills aren't going to be what we wanted them to be, but we need to look at them as a beginning and not an end. "This is what we've done, now help us do more" instead of "this isn't good enough so you get nothing."
    So we seem to see a lot of it the same, other than I don't care about the dems control of WV if it means Manchin must remain. I don't care about dems winning a seat as much as I do about having standards around those who are elected. I agree they should pass what they can but my point is that should by done by putting tons of pressure on both of them. If it were to end up in losing a seat, I think the massive push from the party would signal to many others across the country where the agenda is at the very least (especially if it ended up with a bit more being passed than without said pressure).

    I don't view it as a beginning or an end really, I just think a lot of it that I have seen benefits the country as a whole. We have seen time and time again what compromising ends up in and based on what is being reported of these talks it seems like it will be more of the same. Selling a lesser version after it's been compromised on often isn't a great selling point because no one really ends up happy. I guess it's possible, we will have to see how much is being compromised in the end to tell. End of the day I agree you do what you can, I just think that includes putting legitimate pressure on those getting in the way. Even if it means someone within your own party.

  12. #10902
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    So we seem to see a lot of it the same, other than I don't care about the dems control of WV if it means Manchin must remain. I don't care about dems winning a seat as much as I do about having standards around those who are elected. I agree they should pass what they can but my point is that should by done by putting tons of pressure on both of them. If it were to end up in losing a seat, I think the massive push from the party would signal to many others across the country where the agenda is at the very least (especially if it ended up with a bit more being passed than without said pressure).

    I don't view it as a beginning or an end really, I just think a lot of it that I have seen benefits the country as a whole. We have seen time and time again what compromising ends up in and based on what is being reported of these talks it seems like it will be more of the same. Selling a lesser version after it's been compromised on often isn't a great selling point because no one really ends up happy. I guess it's possible, we will have to see how much is being compromised in the end to tell. End of the day I agree you do what you can, I just think that includes putting legitimate pressure on those getting in the way. Even if it means someone within your own party.
    Do you think a senators job is to vote on what benefits "the country as a whole" or what's best for his state?

    And again. What pressure? You have nothing you can threaten Manchin with. Literally nothing.

  13. #10903
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    So we seem to see a lot of it the same, other than I don't care about the dems control of WV if it means Manchin must remain. I don't care about dems winning a seat as much as I do about having standards around those who are elected. I agree they should pass what they can but my point is that should by done by putting tons of pressure on both of them. If it were to end up in losing a seat, I think the massive push from the party would signal to many others across the country where the agenda is at the very least (especially if it ended up with a bit more being passed than without said pressure).

    I don't view it as a beginning or an end really, I just think a lot of it that I have seen benefits the country as a whole. We have seen time and time again what compromising ends up in and based on what is being reported of these talks it seems like it will be more of the same. Selling a lesser version after it's been compromised on often isn't a great selling point because no one really ends up happy. I guess it's possible, we will have to see how much is being compromised in the end to tell. End of the day I agree you do what you can, I just think that includes putting legitimate pressure on those getting in the way. Even if it means someone within your own party.
    Unfortunately, the electorial map for the Senate doesn't favor the Democrats like it does the R's, so we just don't have the room to play with like they do. It took winning both of Arizona and Georgia just to get the slimmest of margins that we do have. Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin are 2020 blue states with at least one red Senator, but WV we already know about, MT isn't going full blue in the Senate, I doubt Ohio is, and Susan Collins was just somehow reelected in Maine. Every other state has unified delegations. It's the smallest split in over 100 years.

    The biggest danger is putting pressure on these unsafe seats and they either lose, or change parties - either of which flips control, and then we're back to Mitch making sure nothing gets done.


    "`Can you explain this gap in your resume?`

    `Well, the vaccinated hosts on the news channel I like convinced me to resign to protest my work's vaccine mandate and take a few years off to help extend the pandemic”" - @LOLGOP

  14. #10904
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Based on what comparison exactly? Where have I done this? Please show me the comparable instance of me doing this because I'd bet the house you can't find one.

    Who holds him accountable? Because only the voters of West Virginia can do that. Who dont vote for Dems.

    Good luck convincing them that Manchin is corrupt for voting the way they elected him to vote. Sounds like a killer strategy bro.
    I mean in the same general way, people who think a certain way might often do it due to their fears. You bash other beliefs without taking the same approach of respecting their thoughts/potential fears at all really I feel. It isn't even just republicans, I think you were bashing libertarians in a different thread with dbroncos. Why not respect that many of them fear big government? Why not respect the fears about election security? Why not respect fears about the border? I am not gonna search every thread looking for gotchas. I actually disagree that fears of people should simply be respected if that is truly what you were getting at.

    Democrats can call him out, you can call him out. They can help raise funds or promote individuals to run against him. You don't just have to blindly support and make excuses for him you wouldn't others.

    I never said he is corrupt for voting the way they elected him to vote, nice strawman though. I did note a few things though related to possible corruption...
    https://theintercept.com/2021/06/16/...ors-no-labels/
    https://www.opensecrets.org/news/202...pipen-scandal/
    https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/10121...s-climate-push
    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...l-baron-stocks

    We can go on, Katie Porter among others have pointed out issues with him catering to certain lobbyists/donors too. This isn't something new and your strawman isn't going to negate there are real questions about his motives due to his history.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 10-28-2021 at 01:50 AM.

  15. #10905
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Do you think a senators job is to vote on what benefits "the country as a whole" or what's best for his state?

    And again. What pressure? You have nothing you can threaten Manchin with. Literally nothing.
    I think a senator should do what is best for his state, I think taking climate change seriously is good for every state. Do you?

    You can call him out instead of trying to defend him for starters. Democrats can continuously call him out, censure him. They can give support and work to get someone else to run against him.

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