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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Atheism is a simple word with a simple meaning, either you are or you arent. If you're undecided then ok.
    Gee, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    As I said, and you doubled down on with your alcoholism example, free will doesnt go out the door.
    Damn. How many times do I have to ask you, please read more carefully. Please.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    It's not a simple label, but if you do not believe there is a god then you're an atheist. If I do not believe there is a leprechaun at the end of a rainbow then I do not believe so, there's no need to play semantics games about how to date no one has changed my mind but some day someone might. Obviously someone might change their mind some day, that applies to every human, atheist and theist alike.



    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    This is spot on. All I’m saying is that not believing in God is not the same as believing there is no God.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    It's not a simple label, but if you do not believe there is a god then you're an atheist. If I do not believe there is a leprechaun at the end of a rainbow then I do not believe so, there's no need to play semantics games about how to date no one has changed my mind but some day someone might. Obviously someone might change their mind some day, that applies to every human, atheist and theist alike.



    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Best analogy on the subject is a thought experiment involving a gumball machine. Say you and I walk into a restaurant for the first time and we see a gumball machine. I take a look at it, having never seen it before, and noticing that there are hundreds of gimbals inside I tell you, “I know for a fact there are an even number of gumballs inside that machine.”

    Do you believe me? If not, does that mean you must believe there are an odd number of gumballs?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Best analogy on the subject is a thought experiment involving a gumball machine. Say you and I walk into a restaurant for the first time and we see a gumball machine. I take a look at it, having never seen it before, and noticing that there are hundreds of gimbals inside I tell you, “I know for a fact there are an even number of gumballs inside that machine.”

    Do you believe me? If not, does that mean you must believe there are an odd number of gumballs?
    lol, wtf is this conversation turning into?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post


    Damn. How many times do I have to ask you, please read more carefully. Please.
    If you have something to say to that then just say it. No ones tryina sit here and decipher what the hell this means..

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    lol, wtf is this conversation turning into?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I’m sorry you couldn’t see my point. Just like not believing there are an even number of gumballs doesn’t mean you automatically believe there are an odd number of gumballs, saying I don’t believe in God doesn’t mean I automatically believe there is no God.

    Granted, in the thought experiment, if we wanted to, we could actually take the time to find out one way or the other. But that’s besides the point and an entirely different discussion.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 04-11-2021 at 07:37 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Ok. You’re a theist. Tell me how God tells you “no” after you pray for something to happen.

    Thanks.
    See, when you become a believer, they send you this neat magic 8-ball kinda thing...
    It's not that simple. It's not like there's usually a definitive answer that comes right away as there would be if one person verbally responds to another. Many times it's more of a feeling that grows in you as time passes.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Yeah, and that’s a common misconception too. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. One can be both. I’m an agnostic atheist also known as a soft atheist. I don’t know whether or not there is a God. I see no reason to believe that there is one. So I do not believe there is one.

    Some atheists I am sure will say “there is no God.” That’s why it is important that you ask someone what they mean when they say they are an atheist.
    Of course there are variations....there are with theists as well
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    See, when you become a believer, they send you this neat magic 8-ball kinda thing...
    It's not that simple. It's not like there's usually a definitive answer that comes right away as there would be if one person verbally responds to another. Many times it's more of a feeling that grows in you as time passes.



    Of course there are variations....there are with theists as well
    “Many times it’s more of a feeling that grows in you as time passes.” You mean, kind of like your own thoughts but something that, because of this “feeling” you attribute it to God?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    “Many times it’s more of a feeling that grows in you as time passes.” You mean, kind of like your own thoughts but something that, because of this “feeling” you attribute it to God?
    Kind of like my feeling that it is absolutely POINTLESS to attempt to explain something like this to someone who refuses to believe it exists in the first place....people who find humor in the things a spiritual person thinks while a spiritual person feels sadness and empathy for that person.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I don't remember EVER calling you an atheist.
    If so, my bad. Apologies.

  11. #56
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    Just curious. Why is this in the politics forum? For the record, I was very religious in my younger years. Kind of a Methodist I suppose. Events in my life convinced me that my beliefs were hollow and if God does exist he/she/it is not the one I had been worshiping.

    Anyone care?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    If you have something to say to that then just say it. No ones tryina sit here and decipher what the hell this means..
    See if you can follow this. These are in strict order, the key being that there is a huge difference between (1) genes determining (causing) an irrevocable condition and (2) genes creating a pre-disposition to certain conditions. In my example, Downs Syndrome is not in the same league as alcoholism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Extreme case scenario, if faith is determined by material causes, then the choice to believe is not a choice. Free will goes right out the door.
    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Free will doesnt go out the door. People have genetic basis [predisposition] for violence and incarceration. Would you argue free will played no role in their incarceration. If not, then how is it that you're applying it to faith as such?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Read it again. I said extreme case scenario. There are genes that cause specific conditions. A person with Downs Syndrome cannot choose not to have Downs Syndrome. He is not predisposed to the condition; rather his condition is determined by his genes. I doubt that a faith gene (or combination of genes) falls under such a specific category, but maybe it could. I don’t know.

    More likely is a genetic basis for what you call a pre-disposition (like alcoholism) to faith/not faith. I would guess that the process of evolution has resulted for humans in a predisposition towards having faith. Things like hope and faith are probably good for improving survival and thus were favored (and selected) over the many years of human development.
    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    As I said, and you doubled down on with your alcoholism example, free will doesnt go out the door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Damn. How many times do I have to ask you, please read more carefully. Please.
    Last edited by Crovash; 04-11-2021 at 11:13 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue6 View Post
    Just curious. Why is this in the politics forum? For the record, I was very religious in my younger years. Kind of a Methodist I suppose. Events in my life convinced me that my beliefs were hollow and if God does exist he/she/it is not the one I had been worshiping.

    Anyone care?
    Sure.

    As for your first query, this is is a subforum of politics in order to keep religious discussions (which can get testy) out of strict politics discussions (which can get testy in their own way).

    Your story, by the way, is shared by many.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Kind of like my feeling that it is absolutely POINTLESS to attempt to explain something like this to someone who refuses to believe it exists in the first place....people who find humor in the things a spiritual person thinks while a spiritual person feels sadness and empathy for that person.
    You just said you feel sadness and empathy (not sure how one feels empathy but ok) for me because I don’t share your beliefs.

    I’m sure that makes you feel good about yourself. But you don’t hear your condescension, do you?

    I get it. I really do. You think there’s something out there. I do not. There’s a line between us that can never be crossed. That line is called “the proof.”

    Of course, it’s up to you to cross it to make your point. And therein lies the problem. You ain’t got it.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue6 View Post
    Just curious. Why is this in the politics forum? For the record, I was very religious in my younger years. Kind of a Methodist I suppose. Events in my life convinced me that my beliefs were hollow and if God does exist he/she/it is not the one I had been worshiping.

    Anyone care?
    Yep. Would like to know more. So events told you you’re worshipping the wrong God. Are you considering a conversion of some sort so you can worship the one true God, in your mind?

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