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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I doubt this is true. No one who has really thought about it to the point of calling oneself an atheist could ever become a believer. There just isnít any evidence.

    .
    False, lol, I know NUMEROUS people who went from atheism to theism.

    How could you even think this?

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    LOL. The evidence is everywhere, but keep telling yourself your lies. You know they are.

    belief is not blind faith. You're welcome for that lesson.
    Yeah. Youíre confusing your confirmation bias with evidence. You donít get to point to something and attribute it it to to God without actually identifying God itself.

    Thatís not the way it works.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    False, lol, I know NUMEROUS people who went from atheism to theism.

    How could you even think this?

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    Iím sure of that, too. I just doubt it happens the way Site said it does.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Wait, what? What's the difference between a God that says no and a God that says nothing?
    An answer you don't like is still an answer.

    So you think a believer can become an atheist....but just assume it can't go the other way? Why? It happens out in the mission field every single day.
    When God says ďno,Ē he doesnít say it in the form of an audible voice or any kind of a note that can be read. His ďnoĒ comes on the form of ignoring the request.

    So how do you know whether the request was ignored or just never heard in the first place? Or better yet, whatís the difference? Is there even a difference?

    No, there is not.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Yes, and if you accept that there is a god far beyond your comprehension then you're not an atheist.
    Several points of clarification.

    First, I do not claim to be an atheist (you and Brett and Site Wolf love to apply that label on me at every turn, and while I donít give a fuzzy ratsass about the label, please donít hurl it about willy-nilly just to serve your pet narrative). I have said over and over that I am a non-believer with respect to a certain form of god. Yours.

    Second, read more carefully. I know that this is not something you like to do, but it really does help. I never said that there is a god beyond my comprehension. I said there may be one. Big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Free will doesnt go out the door. People have genetic basis for violence and incarceration. Would you argue free will played no role in their incarceration. If not, then how is it that you're applying it to faith as such?
    Read it again. I said extreme case scenario. There are genes that cause specific conditions. A person with Downs Syndrome cannot choose not to have Downs Syndrome. He is not predisposed to the condition; rather his condition is determined by his genes. I doubt that a faith gene (or combination of genes) falls under such a specific category, but maybe it could. I donít know.

    More likely is a genetic basis for what you call a pre-disposition (like alcoholism) to faith/not faith. I would guess that the process of evolution has resulted for humans in a predisposition towards having faith. Things like hope and faith are probably good for improving survival and thus were favored (and selected) over the many years of human development. The philosopher John Gray put it best when he wrote that humans are hardwired for survival, not truth.

    And of course the other extreme case scenario is that there is no material basis whatsoever for faith or religion or spirituality. I doubt this as much as I doubt the opposite extreme, but itís possible, I suppose.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Several points of clarification.

    First, I do not claim to be an atheist (you and Brett and Site Wolf love to apply that label on me at every turn, and while I donít give a fuzzy ratsass about the label, please donít hurl it about willy-nilly just to serve your pet narrative). I have said over and over that I am a non-believer with respect to a certain form of god. Yours.

    Second, read more carefully. I know that this is not something you like to do, but it really does help. I never said that there is a god beyond my comprehension. I said there may be one. Big difference.

    Read it again. I said extreme case scenario. There are genes that cause specific conditions. A person with Downs Syndrome cannot choose not to have Downs Syndrome. He is not predisposed to the condition; rather his condition is determined by his genes. I doubt that a faith gene (or combination of genes) falls under such a specific category, but maybe it could. I donít know.

    More likely is a genetic basis for what you call a pre-disposition (like alcoholism) to faith/not faith. I would guess that the process of evolution has resulted for humans in a predisposition towards having faith. Things like hope and faith are probably good for improving survival and thus were favored (and selected) over the many years of human development. The philosopher John Gray put it best when he wrote that humans are hardwired for survival, not truth.

    And of course the other extreme case scenario is that there is no material basis whatsoever for faith or religion or spirituality. I doubt this as much as I doubt the opposite extreme, but itís possible, I suppose.
    Atheism is a simple word with a simple meaning, either you are or you arent. If you're undecided then ok.

    As I said, and you doubled down on with your alcoholism example, free will doesnt go out the door.



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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Atheism is a simple word with a simple meaning, either you are or you arent. If you're undecided then ok.

    As I said, and you doubled down on with your alcoholism example, free will doesnt go out the door.



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    But itís not. Means different things to different people. To me it means without belief in ďaĒ god. To others it means there is no God.

    Always helps to clarify what one means when one calls oneself ó if one calls oneself ó an atheist.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    But itís not. Means different things to different people. To me it means without belief in ďaĒ god. To others it means there is no God.

    Always helps to clarify what one means when one calls oneself ó if one calls oneself ó an atheist.
    Thos doesnt clarify anything tho.

    If you are without belief in a god, isnt that the same as believing there is no god?

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Thos doesnt clarify anything tho.

    If you are without belief in a god, isnt that the same as believing there is no god?

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    Not exactly.

    I'm not saying "I believe there is no God." I just see no reason to believe there is one. To date, no one has been able to change my mind. Maybe some day? Better way of saying it: I do not believe there is a God. Why is this different? Because the way you say it gives me a belief. The way I say it is devoid of a belief.

    I make no claim that definitively, there is no God.

    Understand this is just me talking. Someone else might give you an entirely different take about their atheism. It's not a simple label at all.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 04-10-2021 at 05:36 PM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    When God says ďno,Ē he doesnít say it in the form of an audible voice or any kind of a note that can be read. His ďnoĒ comes on the form of ignoring the request.

    So how do you know whether the request was ignored or just never heard in the first place? Or better yet, whatís the difference? Is there even a difference?

    No, there is not.
    How would you know how God answers? You don't believe He exists.
    So if, to you, He doesn't exist, you also would have no idea how a believer perceives His answer.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Several points of clarification.

    First, I do not claim to be an atheist (you and Brett and Site Wolf love to apply that label on me at every turn, and while I donít give a fuzzy ratsass about the label, please donít hurl it about willy-nilly just to serve your pet narrative). I have said over and over that I am a non-believer with respect to a certain form of god. Yours.

    Second, read more carefully. I know that this is not something you like to do, but it really does help. I never said that there is a god beyond my comprehension. I said there may be one. Big difference.

    Read it again. I said extreme case scenario. There are genes that cause specific conditions. A person with Downs Syndrome cannot choose not to have Downs Syndrome. He is not predisposed to the condition; rather his condition is determined by his genes. I doubt that a faith gene (or combination of genes) falls under such a specific category, but maybe it could. I donít know.

    More likely is a genetic basis for what you call a pre-disposition (like alcoholism) to faith/not faith. I would guess that the process of evolution has resulted for humans in a predisposition towards having faith. Things like hope and faith are probably good for improving survival and thus were favored (and selected) over the many years of human development. The philosopher John Gray put it best when he wrote that humans are hardwired for survival, not truth.

    And of course the other extreme case scenario is that there is no material basis whatsoever for faith or religion or spirituality. I doubt this as much as I doubt the opposite extreme, but itís possible, I suppose.
    I don't remember EVER calling you an atheist.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Not exactly.

    I'm not saying "I believe there is no God." I just see no reason to believe there is one. To date, no one has been able to change my mind. Maybe some day? Better way of saying it: I do not believe there is a God. Why is this different? Because the way you say it gives me a belief. The way I say it is devoid of a belief.

    I make no claim that definitively, there is no God.

    Understand this is just me talking. Someone else might give you an entirely different take about their atheism. It's not a simple label at all.
    From everything I have always thought, a religious person and an atheist are similar in one way that's different from an agnostic.
    A religious person believes there is a God
    An atheist believers there is no God
    An agnostic hasn't decided one way or the other

    Meaning, someone acknowledging there could be a God would then not be an atheist
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I don't remember EVER calling you an atheist.
    Ok. Youíre a theist. Tell me how God tells you ďnoĒ after you pray for something to happen.

    Thanks.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    From everything I have always thought, a religious person and an atheist are similar in one way that's different from an agnostic.
    A religious person believes there is a God
    An atheist believers there is no God
    An agnostic hasn't decided one way or the other

    Meaning, someone acknowledging there could be a God would then not be an atheist
    Yeah, and thatís a common misconception too. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. One can be both. Iím an agnostic atheist also known as a soft atheist. I donít know whether or not there is a God. I see no reason to believe that there is one. So I do not believe there is one.

    Some atheists I am sure will say ďthere is no God.Ē Thatís why it is important that you ask someone what they mean when they say they are an atheist.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 04-10-2021 at 06:46 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Not exactly.

    I'm not saying "I believe there is no God." I just see no reason to believe there is one. To date, no one has been able to change my mind. Maybe some day? Better way of saying it: I do not believe there is a God. Why is this different? Because the way you say it gives me a belief. The way I say it is devoid of a belief.

    I make no claim that definitively, there is no God.

    Understand this is just me talking. Someone else might give you an entirely different take about their atheism. It's not a simple label at all.
    It's not a simple label, but if you do not believe there is a god then you're an atheist. If I do not believe there is a leprechaun at the end of a rainbow then I do not believe so, there's no need to play semantics games about how to date no one has changed my mind but some day someone might. Obviously someone might change their mind some day, that applies to every human, atheist and theist alike.



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    Last edited by nastynice; 04-10-2021 at 07:07 PM.

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