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  1. #16
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    Too many atheists have become believers. No one on earth before, current, or in the future is denied the choice to believe at one point or another. For some their time has past, but the chance was still there.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, nastynice, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    But isn't this true? I mean it holds true with everything else, predisposition to musical talent, scientific comprehension, mathematical ability, athletic ability, etc etc etc. Why would faith be different?
    I agree here. These seem to be appropriate analogies.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I personally definitely see a predisposition with atheists and a simplistic black and white view of the world. A right and wrong view. And in their eyes god has done some sort of wrong, so they hold it against him as being an injust god. And no injust god could ever exist. They dont care to believe in one.

    Black and white. Right and wrong. Atheist. Heavy correlation.
    I definitely disagree here.

    This assessment is overly simplistic.

    First of all, call me what you will — atheist, agnostic — but it is important to point out that those (like me) who reject your particular version of God as delineated by the sacred histories and eritings of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions, do not necessarily reject out of hand any god at all.

    Also, you can flip the coin and say that people of faith are just as binary in their thinking — which frankly I don’t believe many are (though clearly some are — see post 16 above).

  3. #18
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    poor Crovash, post #16 defeated post #1-3
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    poor Crovash, post #16 defeated post #1-3
    Oh, I see. To you this is all like some immature junior high school competition.

    OK, then, I guess you win.

    You think maybe you deserve a prize? How about the delusional belief that you get to hang around for eternity with a bunch of others as insufferable as you.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    How deep down are we considering a predisposition? I mean we're all predisposed to a myriad of disease possibilities, too...but the chances for some of them are miniscule.

    I just can't view something deeply spiritual and non-physical in nature to be neurologically predisposed. If I grow up in a strong Christian home I'm not predisposed to my spirituality, it's not even genetics that might cause me to be a spiritual person myself. It's the environment I grew up with. If I'm predisposed, would I not stand the same chance of becoming a spiritual person regardless of environment?
    Well I dont think the genetic predisposition negates other factors in spirituality. I think it is simply one of many factors.

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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I agree here. These seem to be appropriate analogies.



    I definitely disagree here.

    This assessment is overly simplistic.

    First of all, call me what you will — atheist, agnostic — but it is important to point out that those (like me) who reject your particular version of God as delineated by the sacred histories and eritings of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions, do not necessarily reject out of hand any god at all.

    Also, you can flip the coin and say that people of faith are just as binary in their thinking — which frankly I don’t believe many are (though clearly some are — see post 16 above).
    Many people of faith are binary in their thinking. Many people who follow religion are just as simplistic in their world view as described above.

    But I def still see that correlation VERY strongly in atheists.

    If you believe in God you're not an atheist.

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Many people of faith are binary in their thinking. Many people who follow religion are just as simplistic in their world view as described above.

    But I def still see that correlation VERY strongly in atheists.

    If you believe in God you're not an atheist.
    I think Site Wolf made it clear in an earlier post that God (with a capital G) is the god of Christianity (and presumably — but don’t hold me to this — also the god of Judaism and Islam). I do not believe that god exists. That is the extent of my disbelief.

    As for binary thinking, I am not sure it matters in this discussion.

    I am simply curious about the possibility of a physiological catalyst for spiritual experience. It stands to reason that there is one, and that would suggest therefore a genetic foundation.

    Why does it matter? I think it would have some ramifications regarding the individual’s capacity to exercise free will, which is one of the fundamental tenets of western religion.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I think Site Wolf made it clear in an earlier post that God (with a capital G) is the god of Christianity (and presumably — but don’t hold me to this — also the god of Judaism and Islam). I do not believe that god exists. That is the extent of my disbelief.

    As for binary thinking, I am not sure it matters in this discussion.

    I am simply curious about the possibility of a physiological catalyst for spiritual experience. It stands to reason that there is one, and that would suggest therefore a genetic foundation.

    Why does it matter? I think it would have some ramifications regarding the individual’s capacity to exercise free will, which is one of the fundamental tenets of western religion.
    I dont think atheism is god specific, if you believe in a god you're not atheist, if you dont believe in a god you are.

    Sure binary thinking matters, I'm stating that I already feel there are underlying physiologic catalyst to peoples (lack of) spiritual experience. As is correlated to binary thinking, amongst other things.

    I dont see what bearing it has on free will in religions context, we already know people have genetic predispositions toward certain behaviors. This isnt new.

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    Last edited by nastynice; 04-09-2021 at 07:36 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Too many atheists have become believers. No one on earth before, current, or in the future is denied the choice to believe at one point or another. For some their time has past, but the chance was still there.
    I doubt this is true. No one who has really thought about it to the point of calling oneself an atheist could ever become a believer. There just isn’t any evidence.

    Those who believe don’t require evidence and aren’t likely to ever call themselves atheists.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I doubt this is true. No one who has really thought about it to the point of calling oneself an atheist could ever become a believer. There just isn’t any evidence.

    Those who believe don’t require evidence and aren’t likely to ever call themselves atheists.
    I'm not quite sure that's true. I've run into people who were raised in a religious household, considered themselves believers, but some tragic event like losing a child caused them to question their faith to the point of no longer believing God exists.

    So either they were never really a believer, aren't really atheists....or it's possible to make the change.
    Which would only make sense- I've known people in the reverse scenario as well.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I'm not quite sure that's true. I've run into people who were raised in a religious household, considered themselves believers, but some tragic event like losing a child caused them to question their faith to the point of no longer believing God exists.

    So either they were never really a believer, aren't really atheists....or it's possible to make the change.
    Which would only make sense- I've known people in the reverse scenario as well.
    The tragic event is one way to make an atheist: where was God when I needed him? Why didn’t he answer my prayers? I’ve had my devout Jewish friends tell me God answers all prayers but sometimes the answer is just “no.”

    To which I reply, “What’s the difference between a God that says ‘no’ and a God that says nothing because it doesn’t exist?” Crickets.

    But you don’t need a tragic event. Sometimes all it takes is thought and reasoning. I believed in God for much of my younger life. Spoke to him many times. Had conversations with him. And then it dawned on me that maybe, just maybe, I was having conversations with myself and I was using “God” as a vehicle to help myself reason things out. And I soon noticed that the God that was talking to me was a reflection of all my thoughts and opinions which differed from others who were also convinced what their God was telling them.

    Then I applied logic and science and walla! I became an atheist. No tragic event needed. Just logic and a lack of credible evidence.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I dont think atheism is god specific, if you believe in a god you're not atheist, if you dont believe in a god you are.
    Talk about binary thinking.

    I can accept that there may be a god that is far, far beyond my comprehension while at the same time rejecting belief in a god whose characteristics and actions have been professed by certain select people at very limited moments in history. No surprise to me of course that those characteristics and actions are utterly human ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I do I dont see what bearing it has on free will in religions context, we already know people have genetic predispositions toward certain behaviors.
    Extreme case scenario, if faith is determined by material causes, then the choice to believe is not a choice. Free will goes right out the door.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I doubt this is true. No one who has really thought about it to the point of calling oneself an atheist could ever become a believer. There just isn’t any evidence.

    Those who believe don’t require evidence and aren’t likely to ever call themselves atheists.
    LOL. The evidence is everywhere, but keep telling yourself your lies. You know they are.

    belief is not blind faith. You're welcome for that lesson.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The tragic event is one way to make an atheist: where was God when I needed him? Why didn’t he answer my prayers? I’ve had my devout Jewish friends tell me God answers all prayers but sometimes the answer is just “no.”

    To which I reply, “What’s the difference between a God that says ‘no’ and a God that says nothing because it doesn’t exist?” Crickets.

    But you don’t need a tragic event. Sometimes all it takes is thought and reasoning. I believed in God for much of my younger life. Spoke to him many times. Had conversations with him. And then it dawned on me that maybe, just maybe, I was having conversations with myself and I was using “God” as a vehicle to help myself reason things out. And I soon noticed that the God that was talking to me was a reflection of all my thoughts and opinions which differed from others who were also convinced what their God was telling them.

    Then I applied logic and science and walla! I became an atheist. No tragic event needed. Just logic and a lack of credible evidence.
    Wait, what? What's the difference between a God that says no and a God that says nothing?
    An answer you don't like is still an answer.

    So you think a believer can become an atheist....but just assume it can't go the other way? Why? It happens out in the mission field every single day.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Talk about binary thinking.

    I can accept that there may be a god that is far, far beyond my comprehension while at the same time rejecting belief in a god whose characteristics and actions have been professed by certain select people at very limited moments in history. No surprise to me of course that those characteristics and actions are utterly human ones.

    Extreme case scenario, if faith is determined by material causes, then the choice to believe is not a choice. Free will goes right out the door.
    Well of course I'm going to apply binary thinking to the word atheism, what else is there? If you believe in a god youre not atheist, if you dont then you are atheist. What else is there to add?

    Yes, and if you accept that there is a god far beyond your comprehension then you're not an atheist.

    Free will doesnt go out the door. People have genetic basis for violence and incarceration. Would you argue free will played no role in their incarceration. If not, then how is it that you're applying it to faith as such?

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