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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Mets, I have to disagree. Analytics may have gotten them to WS, but yanking Snell at that moment will be second guessed forever. Through the first five innings, Snell allowed one hit, no walks and no runs with nine K's.... he was on cruise control. With one out in the sixth leading 1-0, he surrendered a single and was promptly pulled. In that situ go with your gut and trust what your eyes are telling you. He was cruising, showing no signs of fatigue he appeared to have plenty left n the tank.

    That said no team gets as much bang for their buck as the Rays. They have a phenomenal development staff. Their talent evaluation is top shelf.
    People who think analytics are pointless just don't pay attention to baseball. They are literally proven, the top analytical teams are always among the best in baseball. However, that doesn't mean analytics are everything, there is also the human element. For the Snell situation, analytics may say he falls off the third time through the order or whatever. But that is in the past, not on a day where he is near perfect and as sharp as he was. The guys coming up against him were 0-6 with 6 Ks. Easy decision to ride that one out with Snell.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    People who think analytics are pointless just don't pay attention to baseball. They are literally proven, the top analytical teams are always among the best in baseball. However, that doesn't mean analytics are everything, there is also the human element. For the Snell situation, analytics may say he falls off the third time through the order or whatever. But that is in the past, not on a day where he is near perfect and as sharp as he was. The guys coming up against him were 0-6 with 6 Ks. Easy decision to ride that one out with Snell.
    Bingo.

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    He is talking about the one and only, pure trash: Ereck Flowers

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyskilla View Post
    His stern face can give that impression but I don't feel that's the case. New York isn't an easy place to play at, so honestly I can see his confidence at an all-time low for him.

    I don't think he's a bust. I think he just needs the right motivation to pick himself up & play harder.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    People who think analytics are pointless just don't pay attention to baseball. They are literally proven, the top analytical teams are always among the best in baseball. However, that doesn't mean analytics are everything, there is also the human element. For the Snell situation, analytics may say he falls off the third time through the order or whatever. But that is in the past, not on a day where he is near perfect and as sharp as he was. The guys coming up against him were 0-6 with 6 Ks. Easy decision to ride that one out with Snell.
    Agreed , anals need to be a tool not a rule. You have to have coaches in that dugout that will go against the binder if the moment calls for it, just like the Snell situation IMO.

    When u have an ace on cruise control in the playoffs like Snell was no matter what the binder says, win or lose i would have gone with Snell for a minimum of 3 more batters. Binders can't see whats taking place on the field at that minute, they give u a % of an outcome biased on a large sample size. Playing the % works great over the course of a season as we have seen regularly the last 10+ yrs with the better teams success. In the playoffs though, you gotta be able to ride the hot hand in the moment and be able to recognize the human element at key times, IMO

  4. #19
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    Exactly another thing lacking when using analytics is common sense . Common sense tells you when a pitcher is cruising like snell did you leave him on there. Common sense also tells you that the rays bullpen was seen a lot by the dodgers hitters in this series.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    Agreed , anals need to be a tool not a rule. You have to have coaches in that dugout that will go against the binder if the moment calls for it, just like the Snell situation IMO.

    When u have an ace on cruise control in the playoffs like Snell was no matter what the binder says, win or lose i would have gone with Snell for a minimum of 3 more batters. Binders can't see whats taking place on the field at that minute, they give u a % of an outcome biased on a large sample size. Playing the % works great over the course of a season as we have seen regularly the last 10+ yrs with the better teams success. In the playoffs though, you gotta be able to ride the hot hand in the moment and be able to recognize the human element at key times, IMO
    For a lot of these managers its a no win situation. If Snell gives up 2 or 3 runs in the 6th inning, the first thing that happens is that he's crucified for not having a shorter hook, especially in a deciding WS game. Its a % game. Cash liked a fresh Anderson over a tiring Snell. You saw the graphs. Snell's velocity had plummeted by the sixth inning on his fastball and curve ball. Something that indicated fatigue.

    It didn't work out but that's the difficult part of close games. Every decision is scrutinized with a microscope.

  6. #21
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    Agreed

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    People who think analytics are pointless just don't pay attention to baseball. They are literally proven, the top analytical teams are always among the best in baseball. However, that doesn't mean analytics are everything, there is also the human element. For the Snell situation, analytics may say he falls off the third time through the order or whatever. But that is in the past, not on a day where he is near perfect and as sharp as he was. The guys coming up against him were 0-6 with 6 Ks. Easy decision to ride that one out with Snell.
    Analytics is a tool to evaluate a player. No team should be built solely on analytics and no team should be built solely on the eye test.
    Teams should use analytics but should not rely on them.

    Arod is 100% correct. Men and women who have never played the sport but who are good at math, should not be the ones responsible for in game decisions.

    I do believe that the sport is being destroyed by this. In 20 years, how much will this game change because of analytics? Why do we need managers, bench and pitching coaches in the dugout if it can be broken down to a math equation?
    Should those guys be given all the info they can to make the most informed choice? Absolutely.

    Stats need to be used correctly. Stats can be incorrect, inaccurate or misleading.

    "Ks don't matter", so we don't need to worry about that when putting g together a lineup.
    Yes Ks do matter. The statistically driven idea that they don't, is incorrect, inaccurate and misleading.

    Launch angle? WTF is that crap? I remember an MMA fight where Joe Rogan was repeatedly saying, to the contrary of the other announcers who were screaming fighter A was going to win because of this and that, that Fighter. B would win because of his jab.
    Fighter B won.
    My point is, putting that bat on the ball is the most important and simple aspect of the game and like the jab, it gets lost in the. whirlwind of "oooooohhs and ahhhhhs"
    It's why DJ is so good and he's the only truly reliable hitter.
    But stats would suggest he's better off hitting le for average and more for power.

    Here is my stat. When building a baseball team use 50% stats and 50% eye test and common sense based on interaction.



    Ignorance is bliss

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    For a lot of these managers its a no win situation. If Snell gives up 2 or 3 runs in the 6th inning, the first thing that happens is that he's crucified for not having a shorter hook, especially in a deciding WS game. Its a % game. Cash liked a fresh Anderson over a tiring Snell. You saw the graphs. Snell's velocity had plummeted by the sixth inning on his fastball and curve ball. Something that indicated fatigue.

    It didn't work out but that's the difficult part of close games. Every decision is scrutinized with a microscope.
    Who holds the microscope?
    The same people who create the stats. It is about their victory or failure more than the teams.



    Ignorance is bliss

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    People who think analytics are pointless just don't pay attention to baseball. They are literally proven, the top analytical teams are always among the best in baseball. However, that doesn't mean analytics are everything, there is also the human element. For the Snell situation, analytics my saay he falls off the third time through the order or whatever. But that is in the past, not on a day where he is near perfect and as sharp as he was. The guys coming up against him were 0-6 with 6 Ks. Easy decision to ride that one out with Snell.
    My point exactly. Analytics got them to the big one, but.....
    "Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality,” JFK 1963.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    Who holds the microscope?
    The same people who create the stats. It is about their victory or failure more than the teams.
    That's why teams have de-emphasized managers. All the work in regards to in game decisions are done in the front office. Basically these guys are chosen by their ability to handle players. Managers become an easy scapegoat for failed analytics and poor player performance. Front offices aren't as critical as fans are though.

    Fans will pick apart managers. Sometimes deservedly so, other times not so much.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-30-2020 at 02:11 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    That's why teams have de-emphasized managers. All the work in regards to in game decisions are done in the front office. Basically these guys are chosen by their ability to handle players. Managers become an easy scapegoat for failed analytics and poor player performance. Front offices aren't as critical as fans are though.

    Fans will pick apart managers. Sometimes deservedly so, other times not so much.
    That’s why o think analytics and those who created them, running the game, suck



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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    All teams use analytics. Some just more so than others. We've seen the teams that use analytics heavily have more success though over the last 5 or so years. Teams like the Dodgers, Cubs, Rays, A's, Astros, etc. Even the Royals who were very big on defense and having the least amount of strike outs in baseball offensively. That's a pretty big reason why they made it to the WS in 2014 and won in 2015. There is a difference between analytics in terms of evaluating talent and analytics used to make in game moves.

    Managers need to play the balancing act. They have to find a medium between their gut and what statistical probability most likely brings them the outcome they are hoping for. For all the people saying that Cash lifted Snell too early, it was the right move that the Dodgers lifted Gonsolin after 1.2 innings. That's the Dodgers using analytics to win them a WS.
    Bahahahaha he gave up 5 baserunners in 1.2 innings and sucked all October. That's why they took him out. Not analytics.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    Bahahahaha he gave up 5 baserunners in 1.2 innings and sucked all October. That's why they took him out. Not analytics.
    Yeah he sucked but they could have left him in. It was a 1 run game in the 2nd inning. They had to trust their bullpen to give them 7+ innings of great baseball. That's not a move made 30 years ago.

    Btw all the match ups of guys the Dodgers brought in thereafter were made based on the analytics. Whether that be who got multiple innings, how long those individual relievers could go, who was the best pitcher to pitch to 3 specific batters, etc.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-31-2020 at 02:54 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yeah he sucked but they could have left him in. It was a 1 run game in the 2nd inning. They had to trust their bullpen to give them 7+ innings of great baseball. That's not a move made 30 years ago.

    Btw all the match ups of guys the Dodgers brought in thereafter were made based on the analytics. Whether that be who got multiple innings, how long those individual relievers could go, who was the best pitcher to pitch to 3 specific batters, etc.
    Right. All 7 relief pitchers were chosen in those specific spots bc of analytics. Sure.
    Did analytics say not to use Jansen to close? Or is it bc he's sucked.
    Urias pitch the last 2 innings bc of analytics or bc he had been lights out?
    Wood thru Graterol were analytic moves? Or maybe bc they needed multiple pitchers to cover 75% of the game.
    They were common sense or normal moves.
    FOH with the made up nerd stat BS.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    Right. All 7 relief pitchers were chosen in those specific spots bc of analytics. Sure.
    Did analytics say not to use Jansen to close? Or is it bc he's sucked.
    Urias pitch the last 2 innings bc of analytics or bc he had been lights out?
    Wood thru Graterol were analytic moves? Or maybe bc they needed multiple pitchers to cover 75% of the game.
    They were common sense or normal moves.
    FOH with the made up nerd stat BS.
    I would think common sense and how well you know your bullpen would tell when to use certain guys out of the bullpen . Too much credit is being given to analytics

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