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  1. #1
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    A Rod unloads on analytics.

    Alex Rodriguez unloads on ‘Ivy Leaguers’ after Rays pitching debacle
    By Ryan DunleavyOctober 28, 2020 | 12:46pm

    “At a macro level, these front offices are really ruining our game,” Rodriguez said on the Fox postgame show. “The Ivy Leaguers keep getting an ‘F’ in this class called playoff baseball.”

    https://nypost.com/2020/10/28/alex-r...PSportsTwitter
    "Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality,” JFK 1963.
    “The greatest menace to freedom is an inert people.” - Ruth Bader Ginsburg
    "Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts."--- Einstein
    “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.”---- James Baldwin




  2. #2
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    I love Arod.



    Ignorance is bliss

  3. #3
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    I am glad A-Rod didn't buy the Mets then. I know the Dodgers have a ridiculously high payroll but they also win because they have arguably the best analytics department in baseball. The two go hand in hand to being successful.

    Heck the reason why Tampa made it this far was mainly analytics. They can't afford the talent the Cubs, Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, etc get.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I am glad A-Rod didn't buy the Mets then. I know the Dodgers have a ridiculously high payroll but they also win because they have arguably the best analytics department in baseball. The two go hand in hand to being successful.

    Heck the reason why Tampa made it this far was mainly analytics. They can't afford the talent the Cubs, Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, etc get.
    Mets, I have to disagree. Analytics may have gotten them to WS, but yanking Snell at that moment will be second guessed forever. Through the first five innings, Snell allowed one hit, no walks and no runs with nine K's.... he was on cruise control. With one out in the sixth leading 1-0, he surrendered a single and was promptly pulled. In that situ go with your gut and trust what your eyes are telling you. He was cruising, showing no signs of fatigue he appeared to have plenty left n the tank.

    That said no team gets as much bang for their buck as the Rays. They have a phenomenal development staff. Their talent evaluation is top shelf.
    "Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality,” JFK 1963.
    “The greatest menace to freedom is an inert people.” - Ruth Bader Ginsburg
    "Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts."--- Einstein
    “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.”---- James Baldwin




  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Mets, I have to disagree. Analytics may have gotten them to WS, but yanking Snell at that moment will be second guessed forever. Through the first five innings, Snell allowed one hit, no walks and no runs with nine K's.... he was on cruise control. With one out in the sixth leading 1-0, he surrendered a single and was promptly pulled. In that situ go with your gut and trust what your eyes are telling you. He was cruising, showing no signs of fatigue he appeared to have plenty left n the tank.

    That said no team gets as much bang for their buck as the Rays. They have a phenomenal development staff. Their talent evaluation is top shelf.
    Part of that great talent evaluation is analytics though. The Rays are scouring through numbers other teams probably don't recognize. Their competitive advantage is their ability to find players other teams can't. Guys like Mike Brosseau. Sure, they get great draft picks but their monetary situation limits their ability to get great FA, even some IFAs.

    A lot of that is because of analytics. As for in game moves, well analytics are a double edged sword. More information allows for more educated decisions but they dont always work out. It makes for an easy scapegoat.

    Its not surprising teams keep prying guys like Friedman and Chaim Bloom from the Rays.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Part of that great talent evaluation is analytics though. The Rays are scouring through numbers other teams probably don't recognize. Their competitive advantage is their ability to find players other teams can't. Guys like Mike Brosseau. Sure, they get great draft picks but their monetary situation limits their ability to get great FA, even some IFAs.

    A lot of that is because of analytics. As for in game moves, well analytics are a double edged sword. More information allows for more educated decisions but they dont always work out. It makes for an easy scapegoat.

    Its not surprising teams keep prying guys like Friedman and Chaim Bloom from the Rays.
    No argument. As I intimated, no other team gets a bigger bang for their buck. I just believe it was the wrong move at that moment regardless of what the data suggested. I imagine Cash may be haunted for years to come.
    "Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality,” JFK 1963.
    “The greatest menace to freedom is an inert people.” - Ruth Bader Ginsburg
    "Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts."--- Einstein
    “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.”---- James Baldwin




  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    No argument. As I intimated, no other team gets a bigger bang for their buck. I just believe it was the wrong move at that moment regardless of what the data suggested. I imagine Cash may be haunted for years to come.
    I didn't like the move either. Don't get me wrong. That's where analytics backfire. Cash's gut might have told him to leave Snell in but the "binder" says otherwise.

    If you are giving me a choice between an analytics heavy front office and one that isn't, i take the analytics heavy front office every time. A-Rod is weird anyway. He doesn't love analytics but the guy he wants to hire if he gets ownership of a team is Jeff Lunhow, who relied heavily on analytics when he was GM of the Cards and Astros. Cheating or otherwise, those teams won 2 WS under his respective tenures.

  8. #8
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    I would always take a front office that is not analytics heavy over a front office that is . Analytics is flawed because it lacks the human element to make judgements on . I have to agree with arod , analytics is damaging the game greatly . It should be used as a tool to help make some game time decisions but not as a philosophy that is used to make all critical in game decisions and the manager should have the last word on what goes on during a game not some nerds sitting in an office .
    Last edited by Posada20; 10-28-2020 at 09:28 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    I would always take a front office that is not analytics heavy over a front office that is . Analytics is flawed because it lacks the human element to make judgements on . I have to agree with arod , analytics is damaging the game greatly . It should be used as a tool to help make some game time decisions but not as a philosophy that is used to make all critical in game decisions and the manager should have the last word on what goes on during a game not some nerds sitting in an office .
    All teams use analytics. Some just more so than others. We've seen the teams that use analytics heavily have more success though over the last 5 or so years. Teams like the Dodgers, Cubs, Rays, A's, Astros, etc. Even the Royals who were very big on defense and having the least amount of strike outs in baseball offensively. That's a pretty big reason why they made it to the WS in 2014 and won in 2015. There is a difference between analytics in terms of evaluating talent and analytics used to make in game moves.

    Managers need to play the balancing act. They have to find a medium between their gut and what statistical probability most likely brings them the outcome they are hoping for. For all the people saying that Cash lifted Snell too early, it was the right move that the Dodgers lifted Gonsolin after 1.2 innings. That's the Dodgers using analytics to win them a WS.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-29-2020 at 03:09 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    All teams use analytics. Some just more so than others. We've seen the teams that use analytics heavily have more success though over the last 5 or so years. Teams like the Dodgers, Cubs, Rays, A's, Astros, etc. Even the Royals who were very big on defense and having the least amount of strike outs in baseball offensively. That's a pretty big reason why they made it to the WS in 2014 and won in 2015. There is a difference between analytics in terms of evaluating talent and analytics used to make in game moves.

    Managers need to play the balancing act. They have to find a medium between their gut and what statistical probability most likely brings them the outcome they are hoping for. For all the people saying that Cash lifted Snell too early, it was the right move that the Dodgers lifted Gonsolin after 1.2 innings. That's the Dodgers using analytics to win them a WS.
    I never said analytics shouldn’t be used at all I said it should be a tool than can be used . It should not be heavily relied on . Sometimes common sense needs to be used . And the manager should have the final say with what happens during the game on the field . Again I agree with what arod said

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    I never said analytics shouldn’t be used at all I said it should be a tool than can be used . It should not be heavily relied on . Sometimes common sense needs to be used . And the manager should have the final say with what happens during the game on the field . Again I agree with what arod said
    Analytics and common sense are sometimes one in the same. Snell's numbers through an order a third time around are significantly worse than his first two times through an order. Not to mention the Rays have maybe the best bullpen in baseball. Thats why they made the move. It didn't work out.

    Fans do a lot of armchair quarterbacking but even the right moves don't have the desired outcome. That's the life of being a manager. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

  12. #12
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    Snell had only given up 1 hit with 9ks and was absolutely dominating. The very second Cash pulled Snell, everyone knew that was an incredibly risky move to say the least. U have to have a manager who can use his eye and see that Snell was on pace to have one of the better pitching performances in recent WS memory. Snell is a legit, Cy Young winning ace, those are the kinda arms you let pitch as long as they can when they are being as dominate as Snell was in that game IMO

    Anals might have said that Snell had been struggling with the 3rd time thru but Cash's eye should have told him you don't take a guy who's rolling like that out of the game after 1 hit.

    One of the biggest differences i saw between the 2 teams is Roberts seemed to uses Anals more as a tool rather than the rule like the Rays and Cash did

    Didi made a similar statement to Arod about the Yanks, Cashman and especially Boone make their in game decisions based on the anals, where Girardi choose to use him gut in key situations. IMO that is why Girardi's teams consistently outperformed expectations where Boones teams have come up short

  13. #13
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    Girardi's analytical approach did nothing for him this year. At the end of the day, players either execute or they dont. Snell gave up 2 hits including a runner he was responsible for that ended up scoring. Nick Anderson had a dominant season. 14ks per 9, an ERA of .55, etc. Managers also see when players are getting tired whether its through their mechanics or otherwise. Maybe that was something Cash noticed when he lifted Snell. Either way, it ended up being the wrong move but that doesn't mean the decision process was wrong.

    Its just as easy that if Snell gives up the tying or winning run that fans say that he was left in the game too long.

  14. #14
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    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-defens...-world-series/

    To what I was talking about. I dont agree with the move either but the decision making process to the move isn't done on a whim.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-defens...-world-series/

    To what I was talking about. I dont agree with the move either but the decision making process to the move isn't done on a whim.
    I agree it wasn't done on a whim, you could see that the moment the move was made. That said, IMO you have to have a manager that can look at the situation and see Snell was cruising.

    We can disagree about if the move made sense based on the numbers and analytics but IMO you have to be able to over rule the numbers and go with the eye/gut test. Analytics basically come down to % but the game is played on the field not using a computer. There is always going to be the human element in the game and to be truly successful u need coaches that can recognize that. I think they should us analytics as a tool not as the rule, especially in the playoffs

    I do think the analytics heavy approach works well over the course of 162 game season. We've seen over the course of the last few yrs that the teams with the best analytics approaches are usually the teams winning the most games in the regular season where those numbers give u a big advantage over the course of a long season. The playoffs are different, you're facing better hitters and pitchers more consistently and sometimes players get a very hot hand

    For example there is zero chance analytics would have favored the Giants starting MadBum twice and 5 innings of relief in 1 series but he had an incredibly hot hand. Going with a hot hand might not give u the biggest advantage by the numbers but i think we could all agree having Madbum on the mound as much as possible in that series gave them their best chance at winning

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