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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Whore.
    Lmao

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Thatís ok most do. You would get murdered in the MLB forum. Lol
    Well itís because baseball is kinda a different type of sport in that a lot of times itís 1v1, batter vs pitcher.

    In football, thereís so many different scenarios that can happen at any given moment that context is needed a lot more often. Qb gets hit while throwing, ball gets tipped at line of scrimmage, center gives the QB a bad snap which throws off the QBs timing, wr drops the ball, when the WR drops the ball, WR drops ball and defender catches it, wr runs incorrect route etc..

    And this is just a few examples.. thereís tons of different scenarios for every position because unlike baseball, football every single position is doing something every single snap and every position can have a huge impact on the game at any given moment whether good or bad.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
    Well itís because baseball is kinda a different type of sport in that a lot of times itís 1v1, batter vs pitcher.

    In football, thereís so many different scenarios that can happen at any given moment that context is needed a lot more often. Qb gets hit while throwing, ball gets tipped at line of scrimmage, center gives the QB a bad snap which throws off the QBs timing, wr drops the ball, when the WR drops the ball, WR drops ball and defender catches it, wr runs incorrect route etc..

    And this is just a few examples.. thereís tons of different scenarios for every position because unlike baseball, football every single position is doing something every single snap and every position can have a huge impact on the game at any given moment whether good or bad.
    Stats are much more efficient in baseball for the reasons you mentioned but still are the most important in measuring nfl players.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Stats are much more efficient in baseball for the reasons you mentioned but still are the most important in measuring nfl players.
    You and I agree that stats arenít everything but to what degree is where we differ. I think stats also matter but to a certain extent but I think context is also heavily weighed in football.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
    You and I agree that stats arenít everything but to what degree is where we differ. I think stats also matter but to a certain extent but I think context is also heavily weighed in football.
    Agreed. Context is certainly part of the formula.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    My scenario was to prove to you that I get what your saying and that the eye test does have its place.
    Stats though while not perfect are still by far the most important piece of the formula.
    38 total TDs, 18 INTs, 4500+ total yards. How important are the stats? What do they tell?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    38 total TDs, 18 INTs, 4500+ total yards. How important are the stats? What do they tell?
    Need all the information. Again no one said that watching wasnít part of the equation.

  8. #53
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    stats are flawed in all sports but nomatter how you slice it its still far better than any eye test in any sport ever... you cant watch enough of everyone and know what is or isnt people fault unless you watch the tape/know the game plan and be in the coaches head to understand the routes ran or expected to be ran and so on down the list... Nobody watches enough of all players to justify using an eye test over stats in any situation because for all you or anyone knows then the eye test could easily show a QB on a **** team that nobody watches and isnt a big name could be the best actual QB in the sport who is just awful because of the situation/team/lack of anything/coaching/schedule/division... As flawed as certain stats are there is no real bias in stats like there is in the eye test esp when you watch certain guys more than others...

    example MBC has a hard on for hating on carr and that is his prerogative ... but his take is and has been he watched carr more than just about anyone he watches and knows he isnt as good as his numbers indicate without watching film/understanding the game plan and the routes/coaching and so on down the list but because he watches this guy he now has it in his head he isnt as good as others.... its the cam newton stuff as well.. same thing.

    The eye test is the most flawed thing in any and every sport that involves teams because you cant watch every team/every teammate and every game plan week in and week out period.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
    You and I agree that stats arenít everything but to what degree is where we differ. I think stats also matter but to a certain extent but I think context is also heavily weighed in football.
    probably 75/25 stats over eye test and that is me being generous..... if you tell me you go over game film/talk to coaches/watch all games play in and play out every week then i have 0 issues with someone using the eye test.... you cant/dont know and wont ever know... most experts that follow certain players specifically still dont have the time to break down how said player they follow is better than other QBs

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Stats - lie
    Eye tests - lie
    Context - doesnít lie

    Sorry guy, not buying it.
    so the best thing at evaluating is context in only the guys you yourself watch? Then how do you know who is better than who? Also there is now stats for dropped passes/ dropped interceptions/interceptions that shouldnt be interceptions and so on.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    probably 75/25 stats over eye test and that is me being generous..... if you tell me you go over game film/talk to coaches/watch all games play in and play out every week then i have 0 issues with someone using the eye test.... you cant/dont know and wont ever know... most experts that follow certain players specifically still dont have the time to break down how said player they follow is better than other QBs
    Eh I still think itís a little highly in favor of stats. I think in football you always have to weigh context higher.

    Two QBs throw for 350 yards 2Tds and 1Int against the same neutral defense and same neutral site

    Two batters go 3-4 with a 2HR and 5RBI against the same neutral pitcher and the same neutral site.

    I feel that you need like 5-10% more context to tell who was better as a batter (maybe how many SBs, if the out was a strikeout vs like a GIDP, maybe like 2 bbs). But they relatively had the same level of production that day.

    I feel that those QBs youíre going to need to find out who the receivers were (Iíd say Wentzí WRs vs Daks WRs would make Wentz line more impressive), how many attempts did it take to get to 350. Who were the targets. Was the team winning/losing. Were there other points left on the field. Wrong routes. Plus more. I feel like that makes it closer to like 35-40% context driven.

    Basically just throwing numbers out there for football you almost always need context to evaluate each stat. Regardless if stats show more of the picture, itís still not enough to basically look at numbers and say ďwelp, heís better/worseĒ and it seems thatís where some people head.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Need all the information. Again no one said that watching wasnít part of the equation.
    You just said stats were the most important of the 3. I'm just saying, if stats are most important you must be able to make some thought about that stat line.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    so the best thing at evaluating is context in only the guys you yourself watch? Then how do you know who is better than who? Also there is now stats for dropped passes/ dropped interceptions/interceptions that shouldnt be interceptions and so on.
    Even after my long winded response, I like this. Football needs more stats that clear away context.
    You start measuring things like dropped INTs or dropped passes and you start erasing the context argument since those stats are explaining the context.

    There are still many situations out there that arenít measured though. Thatís the problem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    probably 75/25 stats over eye test and that is me being generous..... if you tell me you go over game film/talk to coaches/watch all games play in and play out every week then i have 0 issues with someone using the eye test.... you cant/dont know and wont ever know... most experts that follow certain players specifically still dont have the time to break down how said player they follow is better than other QBs
    You told me a few weeks ago that you see things that other people donít see. Now you are telling me that the eye test doesnít really matter?

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    You just said stats were the most important of the 3. I'm just saying, if stats are most important you must be able to make some thought about that stat line.
    More important? Absolutely
    Independent? No

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