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  1. #1
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    PSD Top 25 GOAT Rankings Summary (Opinion Thread - Overrated/Underrated/Snubbed?)

    In August I started making threads for the basketball forum to vote for who they thought were the best players in NBA History at their peak. If you had to win 1 game and could take the best version of any player in history who would you draft first to build a team around. I enjoyed the debates because it focused less on accolades/rings/all-star games and more on the talent of the players. These were the results:

    #1.) Michael Jordan
    #2.) LeBron James
    #3.) Shaquille O'Neal
    #4.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    #5.) Wilt Chamberlain
    #6.) Larry Bird
    #7.) Hakeem Olajuwon
    #8.) Magic Johnson
    #9.) Tim Duncan
    #10.) Moses Malone
    #11.) Bill Russell
    #12.) Kawhi Leonard
    #13.) Kevin Durant
    #14.) Stephen Curry
    #15.) Dwyane Wade
    #16.) Kobe Bryant
    #17.) Dirk Nowitzki
    #18.) Kevin Garnett
    #19.) Bill Walton
    #20.) Jerry West
    #21.) Oscar Robertson
    #22.) David Robinson
    #23.) Charles Barkley
    #24.) Patrick Ewing
    #25.) Julius Erving

    I am no fool. I know there were a LOT of disagreements about the rankings of these players and to be honest I'm really interested to hear from all of you one more time. A lot of you made tremendous arguments for and against some of these players and I would love to hear your opinions on the final results.

    #1.) What player on the list do you think is the most overrated? Where should that player be ranked?

    #2.) What player on the list do you think is the most underrated? Where should that player be ranked?

    #3.) Name the 1 player that you think got snubbed the most by not making the top 25.


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  2. #2
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    PSD Top 25 GOAT Rankings Summary (Opinion Thread - Overrated/Underrated/Snubbed?)

    The most overrated is KG easy. He a number 2 option scoring and not much of a creator.

    Most underrated is probably prime Walton.

    I think J KIdd and Steve Nash deserves consideration along with the obvious Karl Malone and Chuck


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    Last edited by ewing; 10-16-2020 at 01:27 PM.
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  3. #3
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    I feel like most of the seven-footers from yesteryear ó Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. ó are overrated. I'm not saying they're bad. But they clearly played against physically inferior, whiter, shorter competition. Look at this chart. The height and weight of NBA players has gone up over time, along with their physical conditioning.
    I think a guy like Kareem or Wilt could be better today with advancements in diet and exercise. But they'd still be going against a physically superior, deeper, more diverse talent pool. I don't think there's any way they're as good.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    I feel like most of the seven-footers from yesteryear ó Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. ó are overrated. I'm not saying they're bad. But they clearly played against physically inferior, whiter, shorter competition. Look at this chart. The height and weight of NBA players has gone up over time, along with their physical conditioning.
    I think a guy like Kareem or Wilt could be better today with advancements in diet and exercise. But they'd still be going against a physically superior, deeper, more diverse talent pool. I don't think there's any way they're as good.
    Wilt was a track star (4.6 seconds in a 40 yard dash) who could bench 500 pounds. What current NBA players are physically superior to him?



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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    I feel like most of the seven-footers from yesteryear ó Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. ó are overrated. I'm not saying they're bad. But they clearly played against physically inferior, whiter, shorter competition. Look at this chart. The height and weight of NBA players has gone up over time, along with their physical conditioning.
    I think a guy like Kareem or Wilt could be better today with advancements in diet and exercise. But they'd still be going against a physically superior, deeper, more diverse talent pool. I don't think there's any way they're as good.
    This.

    According to your posted chart, in the Bill Walton era, an average power forward was 6'8 and weighed 220 lbs. Yet people here would take him over a 6'11 250lbs Anthony Davis who is also one of the best (if not the best) defender in the league, can shoot, can dribble, can post up. Just finished putting up 28/10/4 on 57% in the playoffs, 39% from three.

    If Charles Barkley is on the list, so should Anthony Davis. I don't understand the criteria. Davis is obviously a more talented all-around player (if we go by talent), has better advanced stats (if we go by stats), has a ring (if we go by rings). 2020 AD is better than any version of Barkley.

    More thoughts:

    1) All the 60's 70's stars are overrated

    2) If you need one win and you take Steph Curry, who is a non-factor on defence and a lesser version of himself during the playoffs, over Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade, you smoking something good.

    3) Even though I don't like the player, CP3 deserves more love.

    4) Kawhi is obviously overrated as always.

    5) The top 3 is quite good.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanG View Post
    This.

    According to your posted chart, in the Bill Walton era, an average power forward was 6'8 and weighed 220 lbs. Yet people here would take him over a 6'11 250lbs Anthony Davis who is also one of the best (if not the best) defender in the league, can shoot, can dribble, can post up. Just finished putting up 28/10/4 on 57% in the playoffs, 39% from three.

    If Charles Barkley is on the list, so should Anthony Davis. I don't understand the criteria. Davis is obviously a more talented all-around player (if we go by talent), has better advanced stats (if we go by stats), has a ring (if we go by rings). 2020 AD is better than any version of Barkley.

    More thoughts:

    1) All the 60's 70's stars are overrated

    2) If you need one win and you take Steph Curry, who is a non-factor on defence and a lesser version of himself during the playoffs, over Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade, you smoking something good.

    3) Even though I don't like the player, CP3 deserves more love.

    4) Kawhi is obviously overrated as always.

    5) The top 3 is quite good.
    According to the same charts the average PF in 2018 was 6í9 and 230 lbs. your post would make sense if AD was an average sized PF but he isnít


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanG View Post
    This.

    According to your posted chart, in the Bill Walton era, an average power forward was 6'8 and weighed 220 lbs. Yet people here would take him over a 6'11 250lbs Anthony Davis who is also one of the best (if not the best) defender in the league, can shoot, can dribble, can post up. Just finished putting up 28/10/4 on 57% in the playoffs, 39% from three.

    If Charles Barkley is on the list, so should Anthony Davis. I don't understand the criteria. Davis is obviously a more talented all-around player (if we go by talent), has better advanced stats (if we go by stats), has a ring (if we go by rings). 2020 AD is better than any version of Barkley.

    More thoughts:

    1) All the 60's 70's stars are overrated

    2) If you need one win and you take Steph Curry, who is a non-factor on defence and a lesser version of himself during the playoffs, over Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade, you smoking something good.

    3) Even though I don't like the player, CP3 deserves more love.

    4) Kawhi is obviously overrated as always.

    5) The top 3 is quite good.
    You're citing the height inflation numbers vs height deflation numbers (for the most part but it varied between personalities) for example, Bill Russell thought 6"10, 6"11 would have people perceive him as a goon. KG used to joke about being 6"12 because he didn't want to be stuck in a 7 footers role.

    Dwight was prolly the most egregious inflater, for years people considered him a 7 footer but It was obviously just wwe style gimmick marketing, when the nba started getting true heights, dude was 6"9. Same for hakeem tho, he was 610

    Anthony Davis is 6"9.75. Prolly 6"11 with shoes these days but old timers were playing on ****** flat converse shoes lol.

    Also got to check both eras by minutes played height wise and the standard deviation between all eras. That's a better picture but the rules, more than the talent is what makes it harder to compare athletes.

    Agreed on point 2, 3.
    Last edited by Chronz; 10-18-2020 at 11:16 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    I feel like most of the seven-footers from yesteryear ó Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. ó are overrated. I'm not saying they're bad. But they clearly played against physically inferior, whiter, shorter competition. Look at this chart. The height and weight of NBA players has gone up over time, along with their physical conditioning.
    I think a guy like Kareem or Wilt could be better today with advancements in diet and exercise. But they'd still be going against a physically superior, deeper, more diverse talent pool. I don't think there's any way they're as good.
    I'd have to see the data set. The nba measured players differently back in the days and didn't really keep up to date with growth. You can safely add an inch or 2 to most players. The weights vary but prolly more accurate than height. Kareem is a transitional bridge i often use to compare eras. Another is Robert Parish, so if parish has played against young shaq and prime Gilmore, and says gilmore was stronger then couldn't we say wilt was stronger than a younger shaq? Following that logic, a better, more skilled and conditioned athlete like Wilt couldn't do what Shaq did?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    The most overrated is KG easy. He a number 2 option scoring and not much of a creator.

    Most underrated is probably prime Walton.

    I think J KIdd and Steve Nash deserves consideration along with the obvious Karl Malone and Chuck


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    So Walton is an underrated No. 1 with his 19 peak points per game, but KG is an overrated No. 2 despite putting up similar numbers on a championship team and being a 23-24 PPG guy on a playoff Minnesota team? Cool.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; 10-16-2020 at 02:13 PM.


  10. #10
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    PSD Top 25 GOAT Rankings Summary (Opinion Thread - Overrated/Underrated/Snubbed?)

    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So Walton is an underrated No. 1 with his 19 peak points per game, but KG is an overrated No. 2 despite putting up similar numbers on a championship team and being a 23-24 PPG guy on a playoff Minnesota team? Cool.
    Yep. Walton was the fulcrum of his teams offense and was the dominate defender KG gets credit for being. Itís a list based on PEAK not career or Walton wouldnít be on it all. It might have only been 2 years but Walton was the best player in basketball for a time and carried his team to the promise land when he was. KG wasnít and didnít


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    The most overrated is KG easy. He a number 2 option scoring and not much of a creator.

    Most underrated is probably prime Walton.

    I think J KIdd and Steve Nash deserves consideration along with the obvious Karl Malone and Chuck


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    #1.) If KG is overrated because he is a #2 option on offense then how do you feel about Russell?

    #2.) Would you switch Bill Walton and Moses Malone?


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  12. #12
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    PSD Top 25 GOAT Rankings Summary (Opinion Thread - Overrated/Underrated/Snubbed?)

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    #1.) If KG is overrated because he is a #2 option on offense then how do you feel about Russell?

    #2.) Would you switch Bill Walton and Moses Malone?
    1) I donít. He played in an era I can not contextualize. He is considered the most dominant defensive player ever by some some and was considered the best for a long time by many of his contemporaries. I will say the legend of his individual impact defensively and what KG brought in terms of defensive impact are very different.

    2) Maybe Moses is a tough rank. I think he probably deserves to be somewhere around where he is and Walton probably deserve to be slightly higher. I would suggest people watch a little prime Walton if they can. He was a an amazing basketball player. The guys instincts were off the charts on both ends. Just a brilliant player


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  13. #13
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    1. Players 11-14

    2. Not sure

    3. CP3 TMac Kidd or Nash

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    1. Players 11-14

    2. Not sure

    3. CP3 TMac Kidd or Nash
    Who would you take off to put them on? Would you take all 4 of those guards over Harden?


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  15. #15
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    I think we nailed the top 5. 6-9 are debatable, and I'm not sure I would have put those guys there in that specific order, but I'm not mad at any of those picks.

    10-12 are pretty much a train wreck. Moses is great, but there were so many better peak guys than him still on the board. I feel like he should have fallen in the 15-20 range, like he regular does in other all-time discussions. Russell at 11 is the biggest reach on the board. Phenomenal career and rightly a top 10 guy in most all-time conversations, but in a peak conversation, he's a borderline top 25 guy at best. And Kawhi in the top 15 doesn't bother me a ton, but there were other guards/wings from this era who should have gone higher. I would have put him behind the guys who went from 13-16.

    13-23 overall feels solid to me. The order of those guys is debatable, but none of those picks feel shocking. The run on modern guards and wings was inevitable, and although Wade/Kobe was a coin flip for me, I kind of agree with the order from 13-16. And I have no problem with the order of the rest of the guys, including Dr. J, except for one pick...

    Ewing. He just didn't belong on this list, period. There were other guys who were far more dominant in their respective eras or had more postseason success than he did. Ewing just felt like "We don't know who to pick here, but here's two Knicks fans playing the nostalgia card, so he wins." Top 30-35? Maybe. Not top 25.

    The most obvious omissions for me would be Harden, Paul and maybe Giannis and Davisóhard to tell with them because they're still so young as even in a peak discussion, most of the guys on this list, you'd want to take the seasoned veteran versions of them, not the 25-year-old versions.


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