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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    i would take KL over wade as well... its def close but outside of that 1 title wade was a beta.
    Peak Kawhi is the superior perimeter defender and shooter. But peak Wade was just had a better all-around offensive game. Better at penetrating and finishing around the rim. Better at drawing contact and getting to the free throw line. Greater arsenal of offensive moves. Vastly superior creator and playmaker.

    Kawhi's hyper-efficiency and defense, and his ability to kick things up a notch in the playoffs deserves a place on this list. But that place shouldn't have been as high as Wade, whose overall '06 season is at least on par with Kawhi's '19 season and probably surpasses it when you consider Wade's better regular season. Factoring in Wade's overall superiority offensively, I just don't get how Kawhi finished higher.


  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Peak Kawhi is the superior perimeter defender and shooter. But peak Wade was just had a better all-around offensive game. Better at penetrating and finishing around the rim. Better at drawing contact and getting to the free throw line. Greater arsenal of offensive moves. Vastly superior creator and playmaker.

    Kawhi's hyper-efficiency and defense, and his ability to kick things up a notch in the playoffs deserves a place on this list. But that place shouldn't have been as high as Wade, whose overall '06 season is at least on par with Kawhi's '19 season and probably surpasses it when you consider Wade's better regular season. Factoring in Wade's overall superiority offensively, I just don't get how Kawhi finished higher.
    How soon they forget...

  3. #93
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I'm afraid to ask where you think Wade should be on the list.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I'm afraid to ask where you think Wade should be on the list.
    Think I started voting for him around 6 but I can see some of their guys above him. He should’ve been above Kawhi, Curry, and KD for sure though.

    Curry shrinks on the biggest stage and got outplayed by a role player.

    KD has never won without the most stacked team ever.

    2006 as a whole is better than anything Kawhi has ever done.

  6. #96
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    Should’ve been over Bill too actually. Bill isn’t near a lot of these guys. Realistically Wade should’ve been 10-11 at worst.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I dont see it, the games changed and maybe he would be better today but AD wasn't having the struggles that D-Rob was come playoffs so its not even a fair comp on that alone. AD might be the 2nd best PF of all-time when its all said and done. Hell Clyde might be the better offensive player to allow D-Rob to be the KG to his Pierce.

    Falling behind the pecking order offensively doesn't mean you cant be the best player.
    Offensively he was unstoppable though in the regular season. The playoffs were different because teams would double and triple him and his coaching was beyond bad until pop started coaching and he was out of his prime.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Offensively he was unstoppable though in the regular season. The playoffs were different because teams would double and triple him and his coaching was beyond bad until pop started coaching and he was out of his prime.
    The playoffs are always different, coaching is never that significant a factor and if it is, it means you have a fake star player if a simple coach can detract from their greatness to this degree. It was the role more than any coach, all the evidence we have shows us that.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Peak Kawhi is the superior perimeter defender and shooter. But peak Wade was just had a better all-around offensive game. Better at penetrating and finishing around the rim. Better at drawing contact and getting to the free throw line. Greater arsenal of offensive moves. Vastly superior creator and playmaker.

    Kawhi's hyper-efficiency and defense, and his ability to kick things up a notch in the playoffs deserves a place on this list. But that place shouldn't have been as high as Wade, whose overall '06 season is at least on par with Kawhi's '19 season and probably surpasses it when you consider Wade's better regular season. Factoring in Wade's overall superiority offensively, I just don't get how Kawhi finished higher.
    1.) Kawhi's peak playoff TS% .619 > Wade's peak playoff TS% .593
    2.) Kawhi's peak playoff TRB% 12.8 > Wade's peak playoff TRB% 8.4
    3.) Kawhi's peak playoff AST/TO 1.26 < Wade's peak playoff AST/TO 1.46
    4.) Kawhi's peak playoff PPG 30.5 > Wade's peak playoff PPG 28.4 (Wade played more minutes/game too)
    5.) Kawhi spaces the floor out exponentially more than Wade. Not even WaDe03 would argue this.
    6.) Kawhi is the better all around defender. You have conceded this as well.


    So if Wade apparently has more ways to score, why is Kawhi noticeably more efficient and scoring more points per game in the post season? I think you underrate Kawhi offensive impact if you think scoring fewer points one dimensionally (he attacked the rim and got every call) less efficiently is better than scoring more efficiently from long range, mid-range, and posting up, but marginally less efficiently when attacking the rim. I conceded Wade is the superior playmaker, but that marginal difference isn't the biggest separating variable here.

    This isn't even mentioning the fact that 2006 was a controversial year as well. A ref who was put in prison even talked about how it was rigged and how refs bet on the Heat. I know you're an Astros fan, so perhaps this isn't that big of a deal to you, but it's yet another variable to consider when Wade has the refs on his side, he still underperforms in comparison to Kawhi.
    Last edited by Redrum187; 10-23-2020 at 03:07 PM.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    The playoffs are always different, coaching is never that significant a factor and if it is, it means you have a fake star player if a simple coach can detract from their greatness to this degree. It was the role more than any coach, all the evidence we have shows us that.
    Coaches are trying to stop every top player in the playoffs, he doesn't think Hakeem or Shaw or Ewing saw doubles and triple teams?

    David Robinson was a great player, but the playoffs show us he was not cut out to be an elite #1 option offensively.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    The playoffs are always different, coaching is never that significant a factor and if it is, it means you have a fake star player if a simple coach can detract from their greatness to this degree. It was the role more than any coach, all the evidence we have shows us that.
    He had a different coach every year. And as a center they need to get you the ball. Against the nuggets in the playoffs he was shooting like 75% from the field but only taking like 12 shots a game. You can’t be a fake star and be number 2 in winshares48 all time. And as soon as Pop coached him while he was out of his prime, his playoffs jumped. In the playoffs coaching matters the most because you game plan and adjust. Spurs were not game planning or adjusting. Against the rockets when he was outplayed by Hakeem. The Rockets doubled Dave hard. Meanwhile the Spurs left David out in an island with Hakeem. That’s coaching. You single cover for an entire series, that’s on the coach. Coaching is most important in the playoffs and especially for a center who needs other players to get him the ball.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Coaches are trying to stop every top player in the playoffs, he doesn't think Hakeem or Shaw or Ewing saw doubles and triple teams?

    David Robinson was a great player, but the playoffs show us he was not cut out to be an elite #1 option offensively.
    Spurs series, they didn’t double Hakeem, but they did double David. Spurs had a different coach every year. David craps on Hakeem during the reg season and has 4 1st team all nba over him.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    1.) Kawhi's peak playoff TS% .619 > Wade's peak playoff TS% .593
    2.) Kawhi's peak playoff TRB% 12.8 > Wade's peak playoff TRB% 8.4
    3.) Kawhi's peak playoff AST/TO 1.26 < Wade's peak playoff AST/TO 1.46
    4.) Kawhi's peak playoff PPG 30.5 > Wade's peak playoff PPG 28.4 (Wade played more minutes/game too)
    5.) Kawhi spaces the floor out exponentially more than Wade. Not even WaDe03 would argue this.
    6.) Kawhi is the better all around defender. You have conceded this as well.


    So if Wade apparently has more ways to score, why is Kawhi noticeably more efficient and scoring more points per game in the post season? I think you underrate Kawhi offensive impact if you think scoring fewer points one dimensionally (he attacked the rim and got every call) less efficiently is better than scoring more efficiently from long range, mid-range, and posting up, but marginally less efficiently when attacking the rim. I conceded Wade is the superior playmaker, but that marginal difference isn't the biggest separating variable here.

    This isn't even mentioning the fact that 2006 was a controversial year as well. A ref who was put in prison even talked about how it was rigged and how refs bet on the Heat. I know you're an Astros fan, so perhaps this isn't that big of a deal to you, but it's yet another variable to consider when Wade has the refs on his side, he still underperforms in comparison to Kawhi.
    And now compare their opponents and skew the numbers to also show how Kawhi is playing in the inflated nunbers era.

    Kawhi:
    1st round: Magic (Lmao)
    2nd round: Sixers with Jimmy Embiid and Simmons who were clearly dysfunctional from the top down. Imo the best team they played.
    ECF: Bucks, giannis always folds in the playoffs
    Finals: Warriors with major injuries to Klay KD and Cousins. Kawhis performance in this finals wasn’t that impressive. In fact he got bailed out by FVV and maybe Lowry in game 6 while playing bad iirc.

    Wade:
    First round: Bulls team much better than the Magic. One of the top defensive teams in the league.
    Second round: Nets with VC Kidd and RJeff
    ECF: elite 64 win pistons team with elite defense and Billups Rip Rasheed Ben Wallace and Prince.
    Finals: elite 60 win Mavs team who choked to end game 3 when Wade would not be denied.

    Your one dimensional scoring comment is hilarious too as Wade was eating you all alive from mid range and even hit some 3s. You sound desperate, give it up.

    Peak Wade in the inflated numbers era Is putting up Harden numbers with elite defense. He’s better than any player currently in the league.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Spurs series, they didn’t double Hakeem, but they did double David. Spurs had a different coach every year. David craps on Hakeem during the reg season and has 4 1st team all nba over him.
    Well that explains why Hakeem was better than him that one series, but not all the others. Hakeem was better in the playoffs even when getting doubled and triple teamed.

    But also, looking at their career head to head is misleading because it encompasses Hakeem's later years where he was a shell of his former self, but consider:

    https://www.landofbasketball.com/gam...d_robinson.htm


    Hakeem outscored D-Rob 29 times, D-Rob outscored Hakeem 13 times. D-Rob has a slight edge in games for rebounds, assists, and steals, but Hakeem a sizeable league in games with more blocks (25 to 18).


    And, when you look at their stats head to head through 96 you get:

    Hakeem:
    24.9 PPG | 12.2 RPG | 3.2 APG | 2.0 SPG | 3.6 BPG | 3.1 TO | 45% FG

    D-Rob:
    21.8 PPG | 11.9 RPG | 3.2 APG | 2.2 SPG | 3.7 BPG | 3.5 TO | 47.5% FG


    Those are fairly close. Hakeem scores more but at a lesser FG%, but also commits less turnovers.

    And even then, Hakeem was more prone to top performances against D-Rob, than D-Rob against Hakeem. Here were all the times each player scored over 35 points in the regular season:

    Hakeem: 47
    Hakeem: 45
    Robinson: 40
    Hakeem: 38
    Hakeem: 37
    Hakeem: 36


    D-Rob is most certainly not crapping on Hakeem in the regular season, unless you count him crapping on a 39 year old Raptor Hakeem...

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    My little cross era rant - I hate it so much. AI is the biggest loser of using analytics retroactively to downplay his career. AI played when midrange scoring was king, and efficiency was an after thought. The 3 point line was still seen as a novelty at the time. In the late 90's-early 2000's of his day, you wanted your superstar to be someone that could take the ball and get you 25-30ppg night in and night out regardless of how it looked. So when we apply modern analytics to most guys of that era they end up looking like inefficient chuckers of the ball.

    Hence why I think there tends to be some recency bias to these things. Some people who vote want to apply the analytics to everything and let that overrun it. So of course a guy like Curry/KD is going to have an advantage because they are coached to think a certain way like 33% from 3 is better than 50% from 2. And I'm not saying lets give the older players a pass to put them automatically to the top of the list over modern era guys; but instead of comparing say AI with current analytics to Curry with current analytics, lets compare what AI was in his era to what Curry is in his era; and in that case I think you can make a case those two players are a lot closer than doing it the other way. They are both lead scorers and ball handlers for and offense built around their strengths who play a gamble style defense that can lead to good defensive plays but a lot of mistakes.
    You're preaching to the wrong crowd here, or maybe it's more applicable to say that they don't want to hear these things. This analytics mindset has become the norm on this forum and anyone who disagrees is a heretic. The irony is that they don't even understand what these numbers show and what their use is.

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