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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allphakenny1 View Post
    Just going off of the guys you have here and not looking at anyone else, I would go like this:

    1. Duncan
    2. Bird
    3. Hakeem
    4. Kobe
    5. Dirk
    6. Curry
    7. Durant
    8. Wade
    9. Harden
    10. Kawhi

    Of course some of these can change based on current players achievements.
    Hakeem is arguably the greatest 2 way player ever. 7 footer with the most block shots. His perimeter defense is what separates him from many bigs. Top 10 in steals and was always a true anchor on defense. Moving him to PF or playing double C’s was his ultimate position. Easily the greatest “Twin Tower” player in the history of the game. We know his offense is at the top for post scoring.

    Duncan vs Bird is a interesting one. Who was more fundamentally sound?

  2. #62
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    David Robinson super underrated. He was the best center in the league for a good number of years during Hakeems prime and Shaqs early prime. So much disrespect all because he never had a crew or a coach that lasted longer than a year during his prime. And he’s got the advanced stats to prove his dominance.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Ahh ok. Still may not take any of them that high.
    Agree to disagree. If you take longevity out of the picture, Kawhi becomes one of the greatest players of all-time because his game has no holes.


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    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  4. #64
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    Seeing Kawhi so high is puke-worthy.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Hakeem is arguably the greatest 2 way player ever. 7 footer with the most block shots. His perimeter defense is what separates him from many bigs. Top 10 in steals and was always a true anchor on defense. Moving him to PF or playing double C’s was his ultimate position. Easily the greatest “Twin Tower” player in the history of the game. We know his offense is at the top for post scoring.

    Duncan vs Bird is a interesting one. Who was more fundamentally sound?
    Would you put Hakeem ahead of KAJ/Shaq/Wilt?


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by naps View Post
    Seeing Kawhi so high is puke-worthy.
    He has no holes in his game. What are you talking about?


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    He has no holes in his game. What are you talking about?
    He just can't carry a team. He's only been on great teams with great talent and great coaches.

    Not buying he is a top 15 peak all time player lmao

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I don't really see how that could be true. He's always mentioned as one of the greatest point guards in history. Even though of course he spent 15 years playing with a top 5 PF of all-time and never won a title.
    Just the way I feel about how he's talked about.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    You are not really comparing Stockton to Kawhi defensively are you? Kawhi is a DPOY who reeks havoc on that end.
    No, just pointing out that Stockton was a damn good defensive player.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I am not claiming Lowry is even in Stockton's league. I'm looking at these players from a ranking/draft perspective. I'd much rather start a team by building around Kawhi Leonard and then finding a player to dribble the ball up the court later. I can draft Kawhi in the 1st round, a talented 2-way big in the 2nd round and Lowry in the 5th round and be perfectly happy with defense/balance/play-making. If you start a team with Stockton then still HAVE to get an elite 2-way big and wing and the pool dries up a lot faster than.

    Hypothetically, I would much have say Lowry-Kawhi than Stockton-Eddie Jones.
    I'm not. Hence why that doesn't factor into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    What's wrong with that?

    Do we actually think that Ty Cobb would bat .400 if he was going against Jacob DeGrom?
    Bart Starr going to lead the Packers to a better record than Aaron Rodgers?
    How many olympics records still exist from before 1990?

    Sports and athletes get better.
    Because there's better training, better data, better science available. In the 60's Jack Nicklaus lead the PGA Tour in driving distance at 276 yards on average. Using what amounted to a rubberband ball and a piece of wood.

    He won the PGA Championship Long Drive contest in 1963 with a 37 inch long wood driver that was 150 cc and 11 degrees hitting it 346 yards.

    Currently Bryson DeChambeau leads the tour in driving at 344 yards playing a 460 cc, 46 inch long, 5 degree driver with a ball made of all synthetic materials that is perfectly engineered to work with his swing.

    Studies have shown that Jack was 4.6% longer than his contemporaries, meaning if we had a way to have Jack swing modern equipment back then, they theorize that Jack would have averaged roughly 370 yards off the tee.

    Basically long story short: We have no way of knowing how older players would perform now because the advantages modern understanding and science has given us and the edge it has given players.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    You can compare them to their own era when you debate their career legacy but if we are debating their peak skills then you have just to look at the player and what they could do on the court. I think to your favor that doesn't necessarily disqualify Iverson. If anything, when you are debating Iverson at his PEAK, you could argue that in the modern game he would be even tougher to contain. Plus the average shooters are much better so Iverson would be playing with much better spacing so that would improve fg% and his assist totals. His free throw percentage was always high. It's possible with a higher repetition of 3pt attempts his perimeter shooting percentage would improve too.

    I actually think a peak debate, if argued correctly, could be used to help Iverson's case.
    I don't disagree there, but most people don't do that. They just go "Here's AI's TS%, eFG, 3pt Rate". I feel we often just throw out some of the understanding of what was the game like at that time and focus on what the modern look at the game tells us.

    Happens in all sports: Older QB's get bumped down the list because their raw passing numbers aren't as high. Older pitchers get bumped because some random stat of pitching to a lefty at night in the rain with a full moon and dark colored jersey isn't high (yes I'm being absurd there but that's the point).

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Hakeem is arguably the greatest 2 way player ever. 7 footer with the most block shots. His perimeter defense is what separates him from many bigs. Top 10 in steals and was always a true anchor on defense. Moving him to PF or playing double C’s was his ultimate position. Easily the greatest “Twin Tower” player in the history of the game. We know his offense is at the top for post scoring.

    Duncan vs Bird is a interesting one. Who was more fundamentally sound?
    Hakeem probably should be ranked higher. I think what separates him from other bigs is talent. He was a coaster in the regular season and then dominated other bigs in the post season when it mattered. If we are taking peak and win one game I think this makes a pretty big difference


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    He just can't carry a team. He's only been on great teams with great talent and great coaches.

    Not buying he is a top 15 peak all time player lmao
    You just described 99% of all championship teams...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    He just can't carry a team. He's only been on great teams with great talent and great coaches.

    Not buying he is a top 15 peak all time player lmao

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    He averaged about 30ppg/10rpg/4apg in the NBA Finals and won finals MVPs for a franchise that never won a title before but he can't carry a team? Got it. Okay.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You just described 99% of all championship teams...
    Yeah I try not to say it and but that post was trash. We have about 60 years of champions as reference and people still recycle the same garbage arguments. The "lmao" at the end is pretty bad too.

    I'm just waiting for someone to cave and start an all-time redraft signup.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by naps View Post
    Seeing Kawhi so high is puke-worthy.
    Why? He is literally better than Wade in every aspect of the game minus playmaking.

    Kawhi is the better defender, the more efficient scorer, the better shooter/spacer, more clutch, didn't need to ride anyone's coat to win multiple championships, more FMVPs...

    If Kawhi is puke worthy, what does that make Wade?
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    He just can't carry a team. He's only been on great teams with great talent and great coaches.

    Not buying he is a top 15 peak all time player lmao

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    LeBron literally left Cleveland because he "couldn't carry his team" to a championship... He gets a pass?

    Kawhi got his first FMVP and ship defeating LeBron. He was traded as a one-year rental and won a championship with that team... so we are now penalizing Kawhi for winning on a good team with a good coach when LeBron has played with higher top end talented players since leaving Cleveland?

    At what point do you take off the hater glasses and realize your opinion is anything BUT objective?
    Last edited by Redrum187; 10-22-2020 at 04:22 PM.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    David Robinson super underrated. He was the best center in the league for a good number of years during Hakeems prime and Shaqs early prime. So much disrespect all because he never had a crew or a coach that lasted longer than a year during his prime. And he’s got the advanced stats to prove his dominance.
    Ill admit he, much like KG, should've been #2's offensively and then we would've seen them truly thrive in the playoffs.

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