The GOAT play from the GOAT player OF ALL TIME?

[valade16]

All the stats say Lebron has been more clutch, and Brons playoff and finals peaks are higher than Jordan’s. It’s all Nostalgia that fuels the Jordan was more Klutch and had a higher peak...we just forget all the times Jordan failed and only remember his championships and his highlights that were highlighted over and over again by Nike commercials. Meanwhile we are older and understand everything now and see all of Brons failures in real time with none of Jordan’s failures to remeber or to compare to.

This is not true. Impact stats all have MJ’s peak #1.

[IKnowHoops]

This is not true. Impact stats all have MJ’s peak #1.

I got Lebron in the playoffs with higher peak

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/


Per
Win shares
WS48
BPM
Vorp

[MarkieMark48]

It's funny when you realize that Kyrie Irving traveled before the entire sequence

Big time block but the score here is level and there's almost two minutes of playing time remaining.

Far superior moments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFlieI0X4Rg

And this was Dominique Wilkins' first important trophy, trophy deciding block after a scandalous decision to freeze the clock with the defending team being 1 point clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01BLdnIOgnY


In the NBA, Michael Jordan in 1998 is by far the most iconic and greatest Finals moment ever. Had he never returned to play with the Wizards, it'd also be the best way to end a sports career ever.

Tayshaun Prince's block was even more spectacular in all honesty, albeit in the ECF and just game 2.

Kareem's sky hook between two defenders in 1974 game 6 to tie the series and send it to 7 was immense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s28ycn-k1Tg

Magic doing it over three players in 1987 was even more spectacular.

I love the "GOATness" comment lol. It was followed by a 1-8 record in the Finals over the next two seasons playing in a weak East, fleeing it when it started to get slightly harder and not even making playoffs... But no, it's not like you exaggerating everything Lebron does because of this Covid Championship with Anthony Davis next to him, it's because he's the greatest lol.

We get it, you love hyping Lebron. There was no basketball before him and he's the greatest yada yada yada. Build him a shrine and invite your fellow believers to live there please. Internet free if possible, you can all talk about how amazing Lebron is without the interference of infidels talking about random players like Michael Jordan.

We get it, you love discrediting Lebron. There was way better basketball before him and he's the most overrated of all time yada yada yada.

[NYKalltheway]

We get it, you love discrediting Lebron. There was way better basketball before him and he's the most overrated of all time yada yada yada.

I'm not discrediting him, I'm describing him.

[valade16]

I got Lebron in the playoffs with higher peak

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

Per
Win shares
WS48
BPM
Vorp

Ah, by peak you mean single season them? Because looking at the top 10 seasons for BPM from between both of them its:

17.5 09 Bron
14.6 91 MJ
13.7 90 MJ
12.7 87 MJ
12.7 18 Bron
12.2 88 MJ
12.1 89 MJ
11.9 86 MJ
11.6 93 MJ
11.5 10 Bron


Bron has had occasional years where he's hit MJ level in the postseason, but he has no comparable sustained period of excellence like MJ from 87-91. MJ's stats in the above categories were:

PER: 30.6
WS: 15.3
WS/48: .279
BPM: 13.2
VORP: 10.1

Bron's best such 5 year playoff time period was 09-13:

PER: 29.1
WS: 22.0
WS/48: .270
BPM: 10.8
VORP: 12.7


Then when you look at those seasons regular season numbers (which also happened to be their best peaks):

Bron:

PER 30.4
WS: 88.0
WS/48: .296
BPM: 11.1
VORP: 47.4

MJ:

PER: 31.1
WS: 97.2
WS/48: .290
BPM: 11.8
VORP: 55.9


It's obvious that MJ was both a better regular season player and a better postseason player.

[ewing]

Ah, by peak you mean single season them? Because looking at the top 10 seasons for BPM from between both of them its:

17.5 09 Bron
14.6 91 MJ
13.7 90 MJ
12.7 87 MJ
12.7 18 Bron
12.2 88 MJ
12.1 89 MJ
11.9 86 MJ
11.6 93 MJ
11.5 10 Bron


Bron has had occasional years where he's hit MJ level in the postseason, but he has no comparable sustained period of excellence like MJ from 87-91. MJ's stats in the above categories were:

PER: 30.6
WS: 15.3
WS/48: .279
BPM: 13.2
VORP: 10.1

Bron's best such 5 year playoff time period was 09-13:

PER: 29.1
WS: 22.0
WS/48: .270
BPM: 10.8
VORP: 12.7


Then when you look at those seasons regular season numbers (which also happened to be their best peaks):

Bron:

PER 30.4
WS: 88.0
WS/48: .296
BPM: 11.1
VORP: 47.4

MJ:

PER: 31.1
WS: 97.2
WS/48: .290
BPM: 11.8
VORP: 55.9


It's obvious that MJ was both a better regular season player and a better postseason player.

In an era a down scoring era.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IKnowHoops]

Ah, by peak you mean single season them? Because looking at the top 10 seasons for BPM from between both of them its:

17.5 09 Bron
14.6 91 MJ
13.7 90 MJ
12.7 87 MJ
12.7 18 Bron
12.2 88 MJ
12.1 89 MJ
11.9 86 MJ
11.6 93 MJ
11.5 10 Bron


Bron has had occasional years where he's hit MJ level in the postseason, but he has no comparable sustained period of excellence like MJ from 87-91. MJ's stats in the above categories were:

PER: 30.6
WS: 15.3
WS/48: .279
BPM: 13.2
VORP: 10.1

Bron's best such 5 year playoff time period was 09-13:

PER: 29.1
WS: 22.0
WS/48: .270
BPM: 10.8
VORP: 12.7


Then when you look at those seasons regular season numbers (which also happened to be their best peaks):

Bron:

PER 30.4
WS: 88.0
WS/48: .296
BPM: 11.1
VORP: 47.4

MJ:

PER: 31.1
WS: 97.2
WS/48: .290
BPM: 11.8
VORP: 55.9


It's obvious that MJ was both a better regular season player and a better postseason player.

Well, yes I look at Peak as best season. Lebrons single best season performance is better than Jordans single best performance. So I say Peak, Bron was better. At his best, he has superior season of play over a Jordan’s best in all those categories.

Plus if we look at top 5 seasons from each player instead of a five year period, than we have a much different result, so trying to measure peak by a five year run instead of looking at a guys five peak seasons, seems a little disingenuous.

For instance. Playoff PER
Bron top 5 years
37.39
32.24
31.11
30.34
30.19
Average 32.25

Mikes top 5 years
32.04
31.67
30.06
29.90
28.35
Average 30.4


So....Top 5 years in the playoffs
Bron
PER 32.5
WS48 .300
WS. 5.14
BPM 12.56
Vorp 3.016



Jordan
PER 30.4
WS48 .292
WS 4.56
BPM 12.67
Vorp 2.71

So looking at the peak numbers from each players top 5 peak seasons, it’s obvious Lebron was a better post season player.


Now if we look at Reg season

Bron
PER 30.88
WS 18.042
WS48 .300
BPM 11.7
Vorp10.234

Jordan
PER 31.08
WS 20.15
WS48 .304
BPM 11.862
Vorp 11.17

Now based on the Peak numbers from there top five peak seasons, Jordan is the better regular season player. But this is to be expected as Bron is known for coasting. What I find more telling is that Jordan was better in the regular season than he was in the playoffs, where as Lebron was better in the Playoffs than in the regular season. At the end of the day. Lebrons playoff stats are superior to anything Jordan has in the regular or post season. In closing, Lebron has the higher peak whether you look at best season, or 5 best seasons. The reason that if you take 5 season in a row and it looks better for Mike is because Lebron switched teams every 4 years resulting in a feel out first year with teams. But regardless of that Peak is the player at there best and is best represented by there peak seasons. Lebrons best 5 seasons are superior to Mikes 5 best seasons in the playoffs thus Lebron is the obvious better playoff performer. I think that’s fair.

[valade16]

Well, yes I look at Peak as best season. Lebrons single best season performance is better than Jordans single best performance. So I say Peak, Bron was better. At his best, he has superior season of play over a Jordan’s best in all those categories.

Plus if we look at top 5 seasons from each player instead of a five year period, than we have a much different result, so trying to measure peak by a five year run instead of looking at a guys five peak seasons, seems a little disingenuous.

For instance. Playoff PER
Bron top 5 years
37.39
32.24
31.11
30.34
30.19
Average 32.25

Mikes top 5 years
32.04
31.67
30.06
29.90
28.35
Average 30.4


So....Top 5 years in the playoffs
Bron
PER 32.5
WS48 .300
WS. 5.14
BPM 12.56
Vorp 3.016


Jordan
PER 30.4
WS48 .292
WS 4.56
BPM 12.67
Vorp 2.71

So looking at the peak numbers from each players top 5 peak seasons, it’s obvious Lebron was a better post season player.

Except that's not how you'd calculate those numbers (simply adding the 5 years and dividing by 5) because in some years they played more or less than another so the weights would be different. Playing at a 28 PER pace for 100 games and a 30 PER pace for 10 games doesn't mean he played at a 29 PER pace for 110 games, it means you played at a 28.2 PER pace for those 110 games. By simply adding all 5 seasons regardless of games played you're giving disproportionate weight to the top season of LeBron's despite the fact he played the least postseason games that season (14).

If you weight their stats's by games played, the 5 year total is:

Bron:
PER 31.8
WS/48 .293
BPM: 12.4

MJ:
PER: 30.8
WS/48 .292
BPM: 13.2



So now it looks like Bron has a better PER, MJ a better BPM and they have essentially the same WS/48. Considering PER is the worst stat of those and BPM is the best, it looks like MJ's top 5 years are better, especially when you add in context (such as Ewing's correct assertion MJ's stats were in a more difficult era to produce those stats).

[valade16]

In an era a down scoring era.

Yep. For example the league average TS% for the MJ years in question were:

87: 53.8
88: 53.8
89: 53.7
90: 53.6
91: 53.4

For the Bron years in question it was:

09: 54.5
10: 54.3
11: 54.2
12: 52.7
13: 53.5

In 2019 it was 56.0.

Which makes the fact MJ actually had a higher TS% during his playoff peak (.594 to .587) even more impressive. It becomes even more impressive when you realize there was virtually no dropoff from his RS TS% to his postseason TS% those seasons: (.596 RS to .594 Playoffs), whereas LeBron's efficiency dropped during his peak (.606 to .587).

Also, Ben Taylor actually looked at a player's postseason performance compared to their competition (i.e. adjusting for playing superior defenses in a postseason series) and surprise, MJ comes out even further ahead.

[IKnowHoops]

Except that's not how you'd calculate those numbers (simply adding the 5 years and dividing by 5) because in some years they played more or less than another so the weights would be different. Playing at a 28 PER pace for 100 games and a 30 PER pace for 10 games doesn't mean he played at a 29 PER pace for 110 games, it means you played at a 28.2 PER pace for those 110 games. By simply adding all 5 seasons regardless of games played you're giving disproportionate weight to the top season of LeBron's despite the fact he played the least postseason games that season (14).

If you weight their stats's by games played, the 5 year total is:

Bron:
PER 31.8
WS/48 .293
BPM: 12.4

MJ:
PER: 30.8
WS/48 .292
BPM: 13.2



So now it looks like Bron has a better PER, MJ a better BPM and they have essentially the same WS/48. Considering PER is the worst stat of those and BPM is the best, it looks like MJ's top 5 years are better, especially when you add in context (such as Ewing's correct assertion MJ's stats were in a more difficult era to produce those stats).

Lol, that’s as even as it get bruh stop lololololol. And you abandoned Vorp suddenly so it mst of hurt your cause. Common Valade. Those stats look even. It’s OK if they are even.

Also if that’s the hardest time, we need to put Drob above KD/KG/Curry since he’s better than them in a harder era across the board on these same stats

[valade16]

Lol, that’s as even as it get bruh stop lololololol. And you abandoned Vorp suddenly so it mst of hurt your cause. Common Valade. Those stats look even. It’s OK if they are even.

Also if that’s the hardest time, we need to put Drob above KD/KG/Curry since he’s better than them in a harder era across the board on these same stats

I didn't abandon VORP VORP is an accumulation stat so it was already accurate by adding the 5 years. You should probably learn about the stats you are using...

I'll grant you they look even. So MJ and LeBron produced near identical stats over their top 5 seasons, except MJ's came in a tougher era to produce those stats and his were from years that were almost all consecutive (87-91) where as LeBron's came from a smattering of seasons throughout his career (09, 13, 17, 20, etc.).

Which goes back to my point: LeBron could occasionally hit the same level as Jordan in the postseason, but he could not do it consistently like MJ.

As for D-Rob, I think he's certainly around the KD/KG/Curry level.

[IKnowHoops]

I didn't abandon VORP VORP is an accumulation stat so it was already accurate by adding the 5 years. You should probably learn about the stats you are using...

I'll grant you they look even. So MJ and LeBron produced near identical stats over their top 5 seasons, except MJ's came in a tougher era to produce those stats and his were from years that were almost all consecutive (87-91) where as LeBron's came from a smattering of seasons throughout his career (09, 13, 17, 20, etc.).

Which goes back to my point: LeBron could occasionally hit the same level as Jordan in the postseason, but he could not do it consistently like MJ.

As for D-Rob, I think he's certainly around the KD/KG/Curry level.

What? No that doesn’t add up...Ocassiinally? I took both guys best years. They are equal in there best years played. Nothing occasional about it when they are equal. Math doesn’t work the way you are trying to portray it. If could only occasionally do what Jordan did, then mathematically he would be even. What a dirty way to try and spin this...damn guy. You really don’t like the fact that they have even playoff peaks lol. First you say Jordan’s was better when they are even, now you say ocassiinally when the numbers also say they are even. Lololololol. Just take the numbers for what they are. When you first said Mikes numbers were better, you didn’t bring up era. Now your sounding like the kid you always make fun of by saying it was harder in another era. Based on what? Then Drob top 5. You could also say that Lebron could hit the highest levels for the longest period of time, where as Jordan only had a five year window to be that great Lebron could be that great over a span of 15 years. And no, it wasn’t harder back then. Defenses are are much more elaborate now and zone d was not allowed. Lebron would of feasted in one on one coverage that slowed hand checking. And you left off Vorp which Lebron was leading in and then said Mike looked better lol. I’m peeping the shade in your game lol

[valade16]

What? No that doesn’t add up...Ocassiinally? I took both guys best years. They are equal in there best years played. Nothing occasional about it when they are equal. Math doesn’t work the way you are trying to portray it. If could only occasionally do what Jordan did, then mathematically he would be even. What a dirty way to try and spin this...damn guy. You really don’t like the fact that they have even playoff peaks lol. First you say Jordan’s was better when they are even, now you say ocassiinally when the numbers also say they are even. Lololololol. Just take the numbers for what they are. When you first said Mikes numbers were better, you didn’t bring up era. Now your sounding like the kid you always make fun of by saying it was harder in another era. Based on what? Then Drob top 5. You could also say that Lebron could hit the highest levels for the longest period of time, where as Jordan only had a five year window to be that great Lebron could be that great over a span of 15 years. And no, it wasn’t harder back then. Defenses are are much more elaborate now and zone d was not allowed. Lebron would of feasted in one on one coverage that slowed hand checking. And you left off Vorp which Lebron was leading in and then said Mike looked better lol. I’m peeping the shade in your game lol

1) Coming from the guy who didn't know how to add up their years accurately, you should not be talking to anyone about how math works. Yes, occasionally, as in LeBron hits that level intermittently but not for a sustained period of time like MJ

2) Again, their playoff peaks are not even unless by playoff peaks you mean "whatever years I want". Peak generally means consecutively.

3) Jordan is better. I won't go into it too much here, but the stats you're referencing do not incorporate the difficulty of the opposing defense, or how much teammates impact the numbers, or how good the numbers are relative to the average of the era. I suggest looking up PIPM or RAPM, or OnCourt +/- factoring in teammates. All those stats are more advanced than PER and not found on BBall-Reference. And all of them show MJ as standing out even more than he already does.

4) And the era thing is not opinion, it is fact. You can look at how teams performed relative to era (even basketball-reference is starting to understand this with their TS+ adjusted shooting stats, which shows how good someone's TS% or FTr are relative to the league average). Another good way to adjust for era is to look at per possession numbers. For instance, if you look at Bron's PPG in 2018 (34.0 PPG) you'd think "wow, he scored more than MJ did in any playoffs except 2 (87 and 88)". But if you look at his points per 100 possessions those seasons you get:

2018: 42.5 points per 100 possessions.

Then you look at MJ's playoff runs and realize MJ almost always scored more than that:

MJ 87: 46.4 points per 100
MJ 88: 43.6 points per 100
MJ 86: 43.5 points per 100
MJ 93: 43.0 points per 100
MJ 90: 42.7 points per 100
MJ 91: 42.7 points per 100
MJ 96: 42.5 points per 100
Bron 18: 42.5 points per 100


Suffice to say, when you start looking at the league averages and adjusting for pace, statistical deviation (i.e. how much better your 31.0 PER is compared to the average league PER in a given year), MJ distances himself from his contemporaries more than Bron does his.

5) You could say that LeBron hit an elite level longer than MJ, and you'd be correct. LeBron's ability to play at this level for this long is unprecedented.

6) I didn't leave off VORP, again VORP is an accumulation stat, meaning the more you play the higher your VORP will be. For instance, in 2019 LeBron was 12th in VORP behind guys like Karl-Anthony Towns, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Paul George, Nikola Jokic, and even Nikola Vucevic. It's not that LeBron was worse than those players, it's that he played fewer games (55) that season.

If you look at VORP per game for their top 5 highest seasons of VORP here is how much VORP they each contributed per game:

Bron: .1466 VORP per game
Jordan: .1494 VORP per game


So Jordan actually produced a higher VORP per game than Bron, Bron just played in more games for their top 5 seasons (103 games to MJ's 91).


7) Perhaps instead of peeping my shade, you should peep at the stats, they are decidedly not in your favor...

[ewing]

1) Coming from the guy who didn't know how to add up their years accurately, you should not be talking to anyone about how math works. Yes, occasionally, as in LeBron hits that level intermittently but not for a sustained period of time like MJ

2) Again, their playoff peaks are not even unless by playoff peaks you mean "whatever years I want". Peak generally means consecutively.

3) Jordan is better. I won't go into it too much here, but the stats you're referencing do not incorporate the difficulty of the opposing defense, or how much teammates impact the numbers, or how good the numbers are relative to the average of the era. I suggest looking up PIPM or RAPM, or OnCourt +/- factoring in teammates. All those stats are more advanced than PER and not found on BBall-Reference. And all of them show MJ as standing out even more than he already does.

4) And the era thing is not opinion, it is fact. You can look at how teams performed relative to era (even basketball-reference is starting to understand this with their TS+ adjusted shooting stats, which shows how good someone's TS% or FTr are relative to the league average). Another good way to adjust for era is to look at per possession numbers. For instance, if you look at Bron's PPG in 2018 (34.0 PPG) you'd think "wow, he scored more than MJ did in any playoffs except 2 (87 and 88)". But if you look at his points per 100 possessions those seasons you get:

2018: 42.5 points per 100 possessions.

Then you look at MJ's playoff runs and realize MJ almost always scored more than that:

MJ 87: 46.4 points per 100
MJ 88: 43.6 points per 100
MJ 86: 43.5 points per 100
MJ 93: 43.0 points per 100
MJ 90: 42.7 points per 100
MJ 91: 42.7 points per 100
MJ 96: 42.5 points per 100
Bron 18: 42.5 points per 100


Suffice to say, when you start looking at the league averages and adjusting for pace, statistical deviation (i.e. how much better your 31.0 PER is compared to the average league PER in a given year), MJ distances himself from his contemporaries more than Bron does his.

5) You could say that LeBron hit an elite level longer than MJ, and you'd be correct. LeBron's ability to play at this level for this long is unprecedented.

6) I didn't leave off VORP, again VORP is an accumulation stat, meaning the more you play the higher your VORP will be. For instance, in 2019 LeBron was 12th in VORP behind guys like Karl-Anthony Towns, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Paul George, Nikola Jokic, and even Nikola Vucevic. It's not that LeBron was worse than those players, it's that he played fewer games (55) that season.

If you look at VORP per game for their top 5 highest seasons of VORP here is how much VORP they each contributed per game:

Bron: .1466 VORP per game
Jordan: .1494 VORP per game


So Jordan actually produced a higher VORP per game than Bron, Bron just played in more games for their top 5 seasons (103 games to MJ's 91).


7) Perhaps instead of peeping my shade, you should peep at the stats, they are decidedly not in your favor...

Or he could learn something about basketball and watch the games again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chronz]

1) Coming from the guy who didn't know how to add up their years accurately, you should not be talking to anyone about how math works. Yes, occasionally, as in LeBron hits that level intermittently but not for a sustained period of time like MJ

2) Again, their playoff peaks are not even unless by playoff peaks you mean "whatever years I want". Peak generally means consecutively.

3) Jordan is better. I won't go into it too much here, but the stats you're referencing do not incorporate the difficulty of the opposing defense, or how much teammates impact the numbers, or how good the numbers are relative to the average of the era. I suggest looking up PIPM or RAPM, or OnCourt +/- factoring in teammates. All those stats are more advanced than PER and not found on BBall-Reference. And all of them show MJ as standing out even more than he already does.

4) And the era thing is not opinion, it is fact. You can look at how teams performed relative to era (even basketball-reference is starting to understand this with their TS+ adjusted shooting stats, which shows how good someone's TS% or FTr are relative to the league average). Another good way to adjust for era is to look at per possession numbers. For instance, if you look at Bron's PPG in 2018 (34.0 PPG) you'd think "wow, he scored more than MJ did in any playoffs except 2 (87 and 88)". But if you look at his points per 100 possessions those seasons you get:

2018: 42.5 points per 100 possessions.

Then you look at MJ's playoff runs and realize MJ almost always scored more than that:

MJ 87: 46.4 points per 100
MJ 88: 43.6 points per 100
MJ 86: 43.5 points per 100
MJ 93: 43.0 points per 100
MJ 90: 42.7 points per 100
MJ 91: 42.7 points per 100
MJ 96: 42.5 points per 100
Bron 18: 42.5 points per 100


Suffice to say, when you start looking at the league averages and adjusting for pace, statistical deviation (i.e. how much better your 31.0 PER is compared to the average league PER in a given year), MJ distances himself from his contemporaries more than Bron does his.

5) You could say that LeBron hit an elite level longer than MJ, and you'd be correct. LeBron's ability to play at this level for this long is unprecedented.

6) I didn't leave off VORP, again VORP is an accumulation stat, meaning the more you play the higher your VORP will be. For instance, in 2019 LeBron was 12th in VORP behind guys like Karl-Anthony Towns, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Paul George, Nikola Jokic, and even Nikola Vucevic. It's not that LeBron was worse than those players, it's that he played fewer games (55) that season.

If you look at VORP per game for their top 5 highest seasons of VORP here is how much VORP they each contributed per game:

Bron: .1466 VORP per game
Jordan: .1494 VORP per game


So Jordan actually produced a higher VORP per game than Bron, Bron just played in more games for their top 5 seasons (103 games to MJ's 91).


7) Perhaps instead of peeping my shade, you should peep at the stats, they are decidedly not in your favor...

Woah chill on the BBR shade, everyones always known that, BBR just made it easier for us to parse all the data. PPG and PPP are both vital, its sort of like how Giannis broke the PER record but he did so playing in that minutes threshold that maximizes ones efficiency so its not as impressive. To what degree, I guess we'd have to run the numbers but there is an argument for raw numbers sometimes.

Have we checked the defensive environments in the playoffs for both of these guys? You're a fan of whatshisface from thinking basketball, he used to post stuff like that back in the day but his old stuff is hard to find and prolly outdated for Bron by now .


Hollinger and Duncan touched on some of what you guys said, I do think there are levels to this but yes, in general, it is easier for perimeter players to thrive today than in MJ's hey (the 90's mostly) but they both agreed on this, the difference between your average SG and MJ back then was much greater than your average primary playmaker today and Bron, so because its easier to dominate from the perimeter, you have more competition closer to your level, so in a sense, its harder to have the same kind of impact.

And tbh, I think the lack of spacing from MJ's days is somewhat offset by the illegal defensive rules, maybe not completely but yeah, I wish we had time travel.