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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Woah chill on the BBR shade, everyones always known that, BBR just made it easier for us to parse all the data. PPG and PPP are both vital, its sort of like how Giannis broke the PER record but he did so playing in that minutes threshold that maximizes ones efficiency so its not as impressive. To what degree, I guess we'd have to run the numbers but there is an argument for raw numbers sometimes.

    Have we checked the defensive environments in the playoffs for both of these guys? You're a fan of whatshisface from thinking basketball, he used to post stuff like that back in the day but his old stuff is hard to find and prolly outdated for Bron by now .


    Hollinger and Duncan touched on some of what you guys said, I do think there are levels to this but yes, in general, it is easier for perimeter players to thrive today than in MJ's hey (the 90's mostly) but they both agreed on this, the difference between your average SG and MJ back then was much greater than your average primary playmaker today and Bron, so because its easier to dominate from the perimeter, you have more competition closer to your level, so in a sense, its harder to have the same kind of impact.

    And tbh, I think the lack of spacing from MJ's days is somewhat offset by the illegal defensive rules, maybe not completely but yeah, I wish we had time travel.
    It’s offset by the “complexity”


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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    It’s offset by the “complexity”


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    Wrong era holmes

  3. #48
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    It was easier to play in the post back in MJ's day than it would be today, thats where I think the big disconnect comes from both sides. But players adapt their game to whats in style and where the game is heading at the time, some players would hold up better than others tho. MJ would rely less on his post game (at least for his own offense, he would still create team offense from there) and more on his insane first step and pop and stop midrange J, you guys can say he would shoot more 3's but he wouldn't be making a priority when he could get to the rim at will in todays NBA.
    Last edited by Chronz; 10-20-2020 at 12:22 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    1) Coming from the guy who didn't know how to add up their years accurately, you should not be talking to anyone about how math works. Yes, occasionally, as in LeBron hits that level intermittently but not for a sustained period of time like MJ

    2) Again, their playoff peaks are not even unless by playoff peaks you mean "whatever years I want". Peak generally means consecutively.

    3) Jordan is better. I won't go into it too much here, but the stats you're referencing do not incorporate the difficulty of the opposing defense, or how much teammates impact the numbers, or how good the numbers are relative to the average of the era. I suggest looking up PIPM or RAPM, or OnCourt +/- factoring in teammates. All those stats are more advanced than PER and not found on BBall-Reference. And all of them show MJ as standing out even more than he already does.

    4) And the era thing is not opinion, it is fact. You can look at how teams performed relative to era (even basketball-reference is starting to understand this with their TS+ adjusted shooting stats, which shows how good someone's TS% or FTr are relative to the league average). Another good way to adjust for era is to look at per possession numbers. For instance, if you look at Bron's PPG in 2018 (34.0 PPG) you'd think "wow, he scored more than MJ did in any playoffs except 2 (87 and 88)". But if you look at his points per 100 possessions those seasons you get:

    2018: 42.5 points per 100 possessions.

    Then you look at MJ's playoff runs and realize MJ almost always scored more than that:

    MJ 87: 46.4 points per 100
    MJ 88: 43.6 points per 100
    MJ 86: 43.5 points per 100
    MJ 93: 43.0 points per 100
    MJ 90: 42.7 points per 100
    MJ 91: 42.7 points per 100
    MJ 96: 42.5 points per 100
    Bron 18: 42.5 points per 100


    Suffice to say, when you start looking at the league averages and adjusting for pace, statistical deviation (i.e. how much better your 31.0 PER is compared to the average league PER in a given year), MJ distances himself from his contemporaries more than Bron does his.

    5) You could say that LeBron hit an elite level longer than MJ, and you'd be correct. LeBron's ability to play at this level for this long is unprecedented.

    6) I didn't leave off VORP, again VORP is an accumulation stat, meaning the more you play the higher your VORP will be. For instance, in 2019 LeBron was 12th in VORP behind guys like Karl-Anthony Towns, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Paul George, Nikola Jokic, and even Nikola Vucevic. It's not that LeBron was worse than those players, it's that he played fewer games (55) that season.

    If you look at VORP per game for their top 5 highest seasons of VORP here is how much VORP they each contributed per game:

    Bron: .1466 VORP per game
    Jordan: .1494 VORP per game


    So Jordan actually produced a higher VORP per game than Bron, Bron just played in more games for their top 5 seasons (103 games to MJ's 91).


    7) Perhaps instead of peeping my shade, you should peep at the stats, they are decidedly not in your favor...
    Dude stop...your lying...”whatever years I want”...gtfoh...why do you have to be so disingenuous. By peak years, I mean there peak years, aka there best years...Let me dumb this down for you.

    If I take MJ’s 5 best years in the playoffs

    And then

    I take Lebron 5 best years in the playoffs

    They are equal

    So

    At there best 5 year stretch

    They are equal.

    But if I take there absolute best year

    Then Lebron is better

    If I take there worst year of there best 5

    Then Jordan’s is better

    Twist that information how ever you like


    I dont see how showing pats per 100 poss means anything whenBron brings so much more to the table.

    Why not list rebounds

    Why not list assts

    I wonder how many more shots per 100 poss he took

    Oh well, you’ll twist any stat at this point to try and prove MJ was better. Funny how you were just getting on the other homie for nuthugging eras. Very very very funny.
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 10-20-2020 at 01:21 AM.

  5. #50
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    And average ts% is obviously due to the 3 ball. Nothing more. Doesn’t mean it was easier, just means players got better. Sinc eJordan retired there have been close to 10 Sg better than anyone in his era or that he ever played against. And I’m not counting the adolescent versions of Kobe/Tmac/Vince. Lebron has much better competition and much better players to go against at the 2/3 than Jordan did.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Dude stop...your lying...”whatever years I want”...gtfoh...why do you have to be so disingenuous. By peak years, I mean there peak years, aka there best years...Let me dumb this down for you.

    If I take MJ’s 5 best years in the playoffs

    And then

    I take Lebron 5 best years in the playoffs

    They are equal

    So

    At there best 5 year stretch

    They are equal.

    But if I take there absolute best year

    Then Lebron is better

    If I take there worst year of there best 5

    Then Jordan’s is better

    Twist that information how ever you like

    Again, I think you're using peak in a different way than everyone else has ever used peak when discussing players.

    When everyone else discusses player's peak, they mean continuous seasons.

    Nobody says "Garnett's peak, you know 2001, 2004, and 2008". They would refer to Garnett's peak as either 2001-2004 or 2004-2008 or some other continuous time period.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    And average ts% is obviously due to the 3 ball. Nothing more. Doesn’t mean it was easier, just means players got better. Sinc eJordan retired there have been close to 10 Sg better than anyone in his era or that he ever played against. And I’m not counting the adolescent versions of Kobe/Tmac/Vince. Lebron has much better competition and much better players to go against at the 2/3 than Jordan did.
    I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. In saying it's easier to accumulate certain stats I'm not saying the league itself was any easier or harder.

    It is easier to produce more efficient stats today in large part because the league prioritizes such efficiency in a way older leagues did not. It does not mean older leagues were more difficult or today's league is easier, only that it is easier to be more efficient today due to how offenses are setup and the proliferation of 3's.

    But that is irrelevant to my point, and in fact actually helps my argument. Despite the focus on efficiency and the ability to increase your efficiency via 3 pointers in today's NBA, Jordan still posted modern efficiency numbers in an era where it was more difficult to do so. Similarly, he was scoring at rates that are higher than most despite the slower pace of the era.

    When I say it's easier or harder, I mean statistically only. I am not talking about the actual gameplay, in many ways today is more difficult than back then (and vice versa). But in terms of accumulating box score statistics, or doing so efficiently, it is statistically easier today to do so than it was in Jordan's era.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I'm not discrediting him, I'm describing him.
    saying there are far superior moments than arguably the best defensive play in NBA finals history is definitely discrediting him and the play. Especially when you throw up links of european league highlights and talk about blocks in game 2s of conference finals. Sure, if you want to say you think they are better go for it but when you use a phrase "far superior" it just comes off as pure hate. And this "covid championship" label youve thrown on it. I bet you wouldnt just write it off had the Lakers not won the championship, youd use it as a knock on him.
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 10-20-2020 at 09:02 AM.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Ah, by peak you mean single season them? Because looking at the top 10 seasons for BPM from between both of them its:

    17.5 09 Bron
    14.6 91 MJ
    13.7 90 MJ
    12.7 87 MJ
    12.7 18 Bron
    12.2 88 MJ
    12.1 89 MJ
    11.9 86 MJ
    11.6 93 MJ
    11.5 10 Bron


    Bron has had occasional years where he's hit MJ level in the postseason, but he has no comparable sustained period of excellence like MJ from 87-91. MJ's stats in the above categories were:

    PER: 30.6
    WS: 15.3
    WS/48: .279
    BPM: 13.2
    VORP: 10.1

    Bron's best such 5 year playoff time period was 09-13:

    PER: 29.1
    WS: 22.0
    WS/48: .270
    BPM: 10.8
    VORP: 12.7


    Then when you look at those seasons regular season numbers (which also happened to be their best peaks):

    Bron:

    PER 30.4
    WS: 88.0
    WS/48: .296
    BPM: 11.1
    VORP: 47.4

    MJ:

    PER: 31.1
    WS: 97.2
    WS/48: .290
    BPM: 11.8
    VORP: 55.9

    It's obvious that MJ was both a better regular season player and a better postseason player.
    I was going to counter IKH's point about peak stats, but valade beat me to it, and has done a far better job of it than I possibly could have.


  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post

    In 2019 it was 56.0.
    The league average TS% for TEAMS was 56.0%?

    If true that's insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    It’s offset by the “complexity”


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    Valade writes an encyclopedia entry of comparative statistics and this is your contribution?


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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. In saying it's easier to accumulate certain stats I'm not saying the league itself was any easier or harder.

    It is easier to produce more efficient stats today in large part because the league prioritizes such efficiency in a way older leagues did not. It does not mean older leagues were more difficult or today's league is easier, only that it is easier to be more efficient today due to how offenses are setup and the proliferation of 3's.

    But that is irrelevant to my point, and in fact actually helps my argument. Despite the focus on efficiency and the ability to increase your efficiency via 3 pointers in today's NBA, Jordan still posted modern efficiency numbers in an era where it was more difficult to do so. Similarly, he was scoring at rates that are higher than most despite the slower pace of the era.

    When I say it's easier or harder, I mean statistically only. I am not talking about the actual gameplay, in many ways today is more difficult than back then (and vice versa). But in terms of accumulating box score statistics, or doing so efficiently, it is statistically easier today to do so than it was in Jordan's era.
    League average doesn’t really mean anything for an individual. Could just mean Jordan played against competition that wasn’t as effective as the competition Bron played against. If a Lebron played back then he my have the same ts% against a weaker field is all.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    League average doesn’t really mean anything for an individual. Could just mean Jordan played against competition that wasn’t as effective as the competition Bron played against. If a Lebron played back then he my have the same ts% against a weaker field is all.
    It could also mean the reason the competition wasn't as effective is because of the rules and style of the play. Yes, LeBron may have had an even better TS% relative to the league back then, and MJ may have had a better TS% relative to the modern league if he played today. We'll never know, which is why a baseline is judging how much better or worse they did than their peers. In that regard, it was Jordan.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    The league average TS% for TEAMS was 56.0%?

    If true that's insane.
    No, the individual player's TS% was 56%. So if you had a TS% of 56% in 2019 as a player, you were statistically league average.

  14. #59
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    The GOAT play from the GOAT player OF ALL TIME?

    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    League average doesn’t really mean anything for an individual. Could just mean Jordan played against competition that wasn’t as effective as the competition Bron played against. If a Lebron played back then he my have the same ts% against a weaker field is all.
    Sorry quote wrong post


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    The league average TS% for TEAMS was 56.0%?

    If true that's insane.



    Valade writes an encyclopedia entry of comparative statistics and this is your contribution?
    It was an inside joke for Chronz.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

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