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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    No, the individual player's TS% was 56%. So if you had a TS% of 56% in 2019 as a player, you were statistically league average.
    That's wild. The league has changed and it's never going back. That's for sure.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It could also mean the reason the competition wasn't as effective is because of the rules and style of the play. Yes, LeBron may have had an even better TS% relative to the league back then, and MJ may have had a better TS% relative to the modern league if he played today. We'll never know, which is why a baseline is judging how much better or worse they did than their peers. In that regard, it was Jordan.
    Ts% isnít the only baseline, and we also know that after Jordan, the next top 5 SG played in Brons era not Jordanís. So that ts baseline is meaningless

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Ts% isnít the only baseline, and we also know that after Jordan, the next top 5 SG played in Brons era not Jordanís. So that ts baseline is meaningless
    The baseline is one example, it extends to many more stats beyond just that.

    As for the next 5 SGs, no they didn't. Or at least I don't know who you're talking about but Jerry West is most definitely Top 5 and he played before either of them. I would also say that Clyde Drexler was a fairly good SG and he played in Jordan's era and was nowhere near as good.

    But reducing it down to a single player example is simply an attempt to distract from the overarching data. It's not like MJ was just better than the SGs of his era either, he was better than everyone to a greater degree than LeBron was better than everyone in his era.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The baseline is one example, it extends to many more stats beyond just that.

    As for the next 5 SGs, no they didn't. Or at least I don't know who you're talking about but Jerry West is most definitely Top 5 and he played before either of them. I would also say that Clyde Drexler was a fairly good SG and he played in Jordan's era and was nowhere near as good.

    But reducing it down to a single player example is simply an attempt to distract from the overarching data. It's not like MJ was just better than the SGs of his era either, he was better than everyone to a greater degree than LeBron was better than everyone in his era.
    Id say Shaq/Dream/Magic are closer to MJ than anyone in this era is to Lebron.

    Kobe/Wade/Harden/Tmac are all better than Drexler
    Step/CP3 both blow magic away in the very stats we are discussing between Bron and Mike. The stats say they are even at there Peak. All the other conjecture is just fanboy arguments. Iím fine with them being even. We know Mike is the better scorer. Lebron is pretty much unstoppable and does a ton more besides scoring than Jordan. There Peaks are even minus all the stuff you canít prove.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Id say Shaq/Dream/Magic are closer to MJ than anyone in this era is to Lebron.

    Kobe/Wade/Harden/Tmac are all better than Drexler
    Step/CP3 both blow magic away in the very stats we are discussing between Bron and Mike. The stats say they are even at there Peak. All the other conjecture is just fanboy arguments. Iím fine with them being even. We know Mike is the better scorer. Lebron is pretty much unstoppable and does a ton more besides scoring than Jordan. There Peaks are even minus all the stuff you canít prove.
    Which is why Iíve mentioned how flawed these statistics are. For judging PGs some great statistics to use are their Box Creation (how much they create for others), and their offenses Ortg and TS% relative to league average (I.e. how much better they make their offense compared to an average offense). Magic looks better (though Stephís impact is also enormous), particularly in the playoffs.

    But yes, consider his contemporaries are 3 of the top 7-10 players ever and despite that he dwarfs them in impact and what he was able to do is even more impressive. Heck, MJ won more MVPs competing against Shaq, Magic, Bird, and Hakeem than Bron did competing against the likes of Harden, Westbrook, and Derrick Rose...

    But Iím glad to see youíve backtracked from your ďBronís stats are betterĒ argument, even if you havenít backtracked quite enough.

  6. #66
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    MJ wouldnít have played like a scared ***** against the 2011 Mavs... #Closethethread..

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Which is why Iíve mentioned how flawed these statistics are. For judging PGs some great statistics to use are their Box Creation (how much they create for others), and their offenses Ortg and TS% relative to league average (I.e. how much better they make their offense compared to an average offense). Magic looks better (though Stephís impact is also enormous), particularly in the playoffs.

    But yes, consider his contemporaries are 3 of the top 7-10 players ever and despite that he dwarfs them in impact and what he was able to do is even more impressive. Heck, MJ won more MVPs competing against Shaq, Magic, Bird, and Hakeem than Bron did competing against the likes of Harden, Westbrook, and Derrick Rose...

    But Iím glad to see youíve backtracked from your ďBronís stats are betterĒ argument, even if you havenít backtracked quite enough.
    Lol you never said the stats didnít didnít mean much, you actually argued that a .8 vorp in favor of Mike, .1 WS48 in favor of Bron, and a 1 point per in favor of Bron showed Mikeís stats look better...that was a case of hardcore reaching to show that the stats were in your favor, pretty much the opposite of saying they donít matter much lol

    Secondly MVPís lol, yeah and Iím sure in your heart you donít believe Drose deserved it. Nash has two MVPís over prime Shaq so big whoop.

    3rdly, backtracked? Where? I never backtracked. You said Jordans stats where better, then I said Lebrons were better, then we both agreed they were even after doing the math. If I back tracked, you also backtracked lol.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Lol you never said the stats didnít didnít mean much, you actually argued that a .8 vorp in favor of Mike, .1 WS48 in favor of Bron, and a 1 point per in favor of Bron showed Mikeís stats look better...that was a case of hardcore reaching to show that the stats were in your favor, pretty much the opposite of saying they donít matter much lol

    Secondly MVPís lol, yeah and Iím sure in your heart you donít believe Drose deserved it. Nash has two MVPís over prime Shaq so big whoop.

    3rdly, backtracked? Where? I never backtracked. You said Jordans stats where better, then I said Lebrons were better, then we both agreed they were even after doing the math. If I back tracked, you also backtracked lol.
    Yes I did, I clearly said PER is the worst stat to use (it's honestly pretty bad) and I gave you several other superior stats such as PIPM and RAPM to use. Also, I used a .8 BPM difference, not VORP (though they pretty much measure the same things, BPM is a rate state where as VORP is a volume stat).

    I also said, when you use superior stats that take into account teammates effect, quality of opposition, and relative to league averages, MJ comes out ahead.

    Look, I admire that you use statistics to support your positions. But the fact is you are using outdated statistics at this point (there's nothing wrong with that, I was using them too for a long time). But if you truly cared about using statistics to inform rather than simply echo your opinions, you should start researching the more advanced statistics out there.

    I think we agree in that MJ and Bron are the only two at this strata in terms of impact, they are the top 2. But MJ's playoffs are insane when factoring in the caliber of defenses he played. That puts him ahead (if slightly).

    (Side note: you shouldn't denigrate Steve Nash, dude had enormous team impact that the stats I'm referring to are able to contextualize in a way singular stats such as PER do not).

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LF85 View Post
    MJ wouldnít have played like a scared ***** against the 2011 Mavs... #Closethethread..
    he would have without pippen... like the other 10 series before pippen got there

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by LF85 View Post
    MJ wouldnít have played like a scared ***** against the 2011 Mavs... #Closethethread..
    Doesn't matter imo, and that was widely exaggerated. He was proven to be extremely gassed , playing way too many minutes, only averaged like 3 less attempts, just settled for j's and would slow down in the end of games. Choking was an aspect of it, sure. But he was just gassed at that point.

    On top of that , Bron shot 30 percent against the Mavs in the regular season with only 21 ppg

    Losing before the finals is worse than losing in the finals.

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    Last edited by blams; 10-21-2020 at 04:51 AM.

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Doesn't matter imo, and that was widely exaggerated. He was proven to be extremely gassed , playing way too many minutes, only averaged like 3 less attempts, just settled for j's and would slow down in the end of games. Choking was an aspect of it, sure. But he was just gassed at that point.

    Losing before the finals is worse than losing in the finals.

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    go watch what cuban said when destroying skip

    youtube it... everyone wants to say lebron choked and i agree to a point but nobody gives the mavs credit for taking lebron out of the series... that was the mavs goal all along... it wasnt to stop a declining wade or bosh which they were but to shut down and force lebron to pass which cuban said he made the right decison more times then not

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRaO1mN5EEM
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 10-21-2020 at 04:48 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    go watch what cuban said when destroying skip

    youtube it... everyone wants to say lebron choked and i agree to a point but nobody gives the mavs credit for taking lebron out of the series... that was the mavs goal all along... it wasnt to stop a declining wade or bosh which they were but to shut down and force lebron to pass which cuban said he made the right decison more times then not

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRaO1mN5EEM
    Nice! Didn't see that one!

    They gameplanned very well for that version of Bron. He only shot 30 percent against them in the regular season too.

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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Nice! Didn't see that one!

    They gameplanned very well for that version of Bron. He only shot 30 percent against them in the regular season too.

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    the mavs title is one of the more underrated... not because of the big 3 but because how they controlled the goat and the goat alone.... cuban was spot on. Lebron had his things he couldnt do much like jordan which could have been overcome in 96 with the way the sport was but oculdnt in 2010 or whatever.... they knew lebron couldnt shoot from the outside and need to drive etc....they knew how to deal with that and it made lebron evolve. Should lebron have been better yes... but the cavs deserve a ton of ****ing credit for understanding this.... The way they played would have shook jordan as well.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    the mavs title is one of the more underrated... not because of the big 3 but because how they controlled the goat and the goat alone.... cuban was spot on. Lebron had his things he couldnt do much like jordan which could have been overcome in 96 with the way the sport was but oculdnt in 2010 or whatever.... they knew lebron couldnt shoot from the outside and need to drive etc....they knew how to deal with that and it made lebron evolve. Should lebron have been better yes... but the cavs deserve a ton of ****ing credit for understanding this.... The way they played would have shook jordan as well.
    Agreed, its all about gameplanning for the team. Why do people think Jordan couldn't make the finals until 91?

    Because teams gameplanned to beat the bulls. Let Jordan get his, and they still weren't good enough to beat you. Pre 91 Bulls, you bet your *** they needed a style like LeBron that was better at getting teammates involved.

    That was Jordan's weakness at the time. He didn't know how, and didn't truly learn how until Phil took over and put his system in place.






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  15. #75
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    Players have tendencies. Lebron is still the same player he was when Mavs beat Heat minus the bottom less athletic ability. Meaning he still makes the right basketball plays. MJ started winning as the team matured with co star Pippen the defensive all around running mate, Horace grant along with the help of the quirky mind playing games Phil. Not to mention Detroit got old. The game is a give and take we saw this again this season if you take something away your team have to know or have the ability to counter. If not you wont win no matter how good that player is. If a team sends 2 or 3 guys at you and forces you to give up the ball the other players have to make them pay. If not they will continue to exploit it. Meaning Heat won the second season and fixed the roaster with better shooting. Lebron did not all of a sudden started shooting contested shots over 2 or more defenders in fact he did the opposite he became more efficient. Mavs plan was the same plan Spurs did, Denver just did and what Miami did. Mavs did not get credit for what they did and i feel many times the under dog teams never get credit.
    Last edited by ldawg; 10-21-2020 at 07:08 AM.

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