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View Poll Results: Is Ross Atkins the 2nd best GM in Blue Jays History?

Voters
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  • Yes

    3 27.27%
  • No

    8 72.73%
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Results 226 to 240 of 397
  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    I'd like to see that and compare that with Shapiro, Beane, Friedman or Zaidi.

    I'm Sure he's higher than Atkins now, but let's wait 10-20 years when this post and their careers might be as meaningless as this post to decide who got more WAR out of their drafts...

    As a side question, how much of that WAR was earned in a Blue Jays jersey? Other than Stroman, Sanchez, Pillar and Goins, I'm not sure who had earned most of that WAR for us.
    Lol. Yes it was compared to those guys. It was based on his years in control of the team. Atkins was nobody before he came here so obviously he wasnít compared to him. But yeah he traded many specs, along with many failed specs for a contender. We trying to win the minors championships or the World Series lmao?!

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    What luck has Atkins had? If not for injuries (JD, Giles) he's able to make better trades. If not for a wife beater, (Osuna) we get more assets. If not for injuries part 2 (Yates, Springer, Merryweather, Pearson, Ray, Ryu, Kirk) we might be in first right now.

    In terms of cornerstones, I think you're forgetting who he signed (Springer, Ryu potentially Semien), who else he drafted (Martin, Pearson, Monoah, Kirk and the rest of the C's, Groshans and a bunch of international signings) and who he traded for (Teo, Ray, SWR)

    As for selling fans on 2017, was that on him or on Rogers, don't shoot the messenger. Not bad for a 3 year rebuild.

    Oh and on Vladdy.
    Baseball America
    @BaseballAmerica
    Jun 19, 2018
    Ismael Cruz signed Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Franklin Barreto with the Blue Jays. Now he's with the Dodgers.
    And they're gearing up again.

    https://twitter.com/baseballamerica/...682368?lang=en

    and

    https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...r-guerrero-jr/

    Wait, Atkins and Blue Jay fans are lucky after all... that AA didn't trade Vladdy during the farm purge of 2015.
    Atkins lucked into an aging contender begging to be sold for parts (****ed that up), and the best hitting prospect of all time. Could be one of the best jobs any GM has ever had the opportunity to take control of. Lucked into a farm and scouting department that was the envy of the rest of the league.

    Dude gave osuna away for what turned into absolutely nothing. Nothing. Not a single asset from a 23 year old closer on pace to have more saves than Rivera.

    So injuries are all luck now though I guess? Signing injury prone aging players is how you end up with a populated IL.

    I donít see anyone on that list that has proven to be a cornerstone yet. Only Vlad. Only his predecessors ITL signing.

    That quote proves absolutely nothing except that the jays have international scouts. Every team does. But here you are giving atkins credit for signing itl fa, and discrediting AA. That screams bias. So this conversation isnít going anywhere.

    Enjoy your opinion. I have.
    But it hasnít done anything to change mine.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Lol he just pivots to another imaginary point whenever you prove him wrong. He has a hard time accepting that AA was a bad GM. Especially after having him replaced with the great creator, Ross Atkins. Thank goodness AA rejected that contract otherwise weíd be in the basement.
    Please elaborate. What have I pivoted on?

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Atkins lucked into an aging contender begging to be sold for parts (****ed that up), and the best hitting prospect of all time. Could be one of the best jobs any GM has ever had the opportunity to take control of. Lucked into a farm and scouting department that was the envy of the rest of the league.

    Dude gave osuna away for what turned into absolutely nothing. Nothing. Not a single asset from a 23 year old closer on pace to have more saves than Rivera.

    So injuries are all luck now though I guess? Signing injury prone aging players is how you end up with a populated IL.

    I donít see anyone on that list that has proven to be a cornerstone yet. Only Vlad. Only his predecessors ITL signing.

    That quote proves absolutely nothing except that the jays have international scouts. Every team does. But here you are giving atkins credit for signing itl fa, and discrediting AA. That screams bias. So this conversation isnít going anywhere.

    Enjoy your opinion. I have.
    But it hasnít done anything to change mine.
    Seriously? I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole at all but how do you luck into aging over laid team with lots of holes?

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  5. #230
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    I thjnk pretty clear that Chong is exagerating because he doesnt like Atkins to combat the overexageration of how much people are saying hos good Atkins has been the past 5 years. He's had his faults but done his fair share as well.

    Before he came in Dec 2015, Atkins inherited a team with a short window but was tied with the 2nd best odds to win the WS in 2016. He did great in 2016 in making moves like Liriano, etc.

    After 2016 season, Jays were tied for 5th in WS odds and his job in 2017 was to build on top of that. He didnt set the team up for suvcess by signing Morales instead of EE. The injuries and the cliff drop in production didnt help. But not signing EE was a blessing in disguise since it sets the domino for where we are now.

    2018 and 2019 was a bad year in terms of asset management IMO but helped us land high draft picks.

    2020 was when the kids graduated and we signed Ryu and made the expanded playoffs (thoigh we would have missed in a regular season).
    Last edited by Raps18-19 Champ; 05-09-2021 at 11:18 AM.

  6. #231
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    It's pretty clear the amount of inconsistencies and novel benchmarks being applied here to judge the 2 GMs though. Most are probably unintentional (and just human nature as a result of bias) but the others probably are depending on if it fits everyone's agenda.

    Pretty sure in the past 5 or 10 pages, I've seen things like:

    -"Atkins inherited an old team" on 1 side and "Atkins didnt make much moves somehow ignoring how both the core and suppliment moves that Atkins made helped the team reach the ALCS

    -"AA didnt even sign Vlad, it was Cruz" in order to diminish the credit AA gets because of how instrumental Cruz actually was. Would be like saying we shouldnt give Atkins credit for not signing Bichette because he came here due to the Jays player development history from the prior regime and due to his relationship with Tulo (he worked out with Tulo, Goins and Pillar the offseason before).

    -"AA inherited a great team so he shouldnt get credit for Braves success" despite him making big moves to get them there even with limited payroll as well (Ozuna, Donaldson, Keuchel, etc). But Atkins also inherited a good team (albiet a shorter window) but for some rrason not all the moves made get credit (especially with theblimited flexibility some of these guys have had).
    Last edited by Raps18-19 Champ; 05-09-2021 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Seriously? I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole at all but how do you luck into aging over laid team with lots of holes?

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    Imo. - you give that team to a competent GM and we are contenders right now. Look at the team Theo inherited with the Cubs. A MUCH worse situation. But he had the balls to tear it down and built a tsunami of top specs on the same timeline.
    I think he had 2 or 3 assets? And he turned all of them into contributors for their championship run.

    This slow trickle of specs and over paying to fill spots in FA is a very tough way to build a contender. Say we are a contender next year - how do you then develop the specs at the ML level? A contender shouldnít have question marks starting. A contender cannot give away 1500 ABís to see what we have in a few guys.

    Iím not saying he canít find a way, itís just not how I would have liked it to be done. I wish him luck because I want a damn parade!

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    It's pretty clear the amount of inconsistencies and novel benchmarks being applied here to judge the 2 GMs though. Most are probably unintentional (and just human nature as a result of bias) but the others probably are depending on if it fits everyone's agenda.

    Pretty sure in the past 5 or 10 pages, I've seen things like:

    -"Atkins inherited an old team" on 1 side and "Atkins didnt make much moves somehow ignoring how both the core and suppliment moves that Atkins made helped the team reach the ALCS

    -"AA didnt even sign Vlad, it was Cruz" in order to diminish the credit AA gets because of how instrumental Cruz actually was. Would be like saying we shouldnt give Atkins credit for not signing Bichette because he came here due to the Jays player development history from the prior regime and due to his relationship with Tulo (he worked out with Tulo, Goins and Pillar the offseason before).

    -"AA inherited a great team so he shouldnt get credit for Braves success" despite him making big moves to get them there even with limited payroll as well (Ozuna, Donaldson, Keuchel, etc). But Atkins also inherited a good team (albiet a shorter window) but for some rrason not all the moves made get credit (especially with theblimited flexibility some of these guys have had).
    Fair.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    It's pretty clear the amount of inconsistencies and novel benchmarks being applied here to judge the 2 GMs though. Most are probably unintentional (and just human nature as a result of bias) but the others probably are depending on if it fits everyone's agenda.

    Pretty sure in the past 5 or 10 pages, I've seen things like:

    -"Atkins inherited an old team" on 1 side and "Atkins didnt make much moves somehow ignoring how both the core and suppliment moves that Atkins made helped the team reach the ALCS

    -"AA didnt even sign Vlad, it was Cruz" in order to diminish the credit AA gets because of how instrumental Cruz actually was. Would be like saying we shouldnt give Atkins credit for not signing Bichette because he came here due to the Jays player development history from the prior regime and due to his relationship with Tulo (he worked out with Tulo, Goins and Pillar the offseason before).

    -"AA inherited a great team so he shouldnt get credit for Braves success" despite him making big moves to get them there even with limited payroll as well (Ozuna, Donaldson, Keuchel, etc). But Atkins also inherited a good team (albiet a shorter window) but for some rrason not all the moves made get credit (especially with theblimited flexibility some of these guys have had).
    One question - I understand he bandaided the BP in 2016. I personally wasnít that impressed with it because the BP still ended up being our weakness in the playoffs, and once again the following year.
    However - you mention core moves that helped us make the playoffs that year. Can you elaborate on that? What exactly did he do with the core to improve the team and bump us up into the playoffs (WC)?

    Iím legitimately curious because I respect your opinions and you have me questioning if Iím misremembering something.

  10. #235
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    In terms of bull pen, They traded Revere into Storen, ehich was good on paper but didnt work out. Then they traded Storen for Benoit and became lights out but got injured in a fight. We got Grilli that year and our plan was to move Sanchez to the oen after we got Liriano but the opposite happened.

    The offense going anemic is what caused us the series against the Indians and what slid us from 1st place in AL east into wild card.
    Last edited by Raps18-19 Champ; 05-09-2021 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    In terms of bull pen, They traded Revere into Storen, ehich was good on paper but didnt work out. Then they traded Storen for Benoit and became lights out but got injured in a fight. We got Grilli that year and our plan was to move Sanchez to the oen after we got Liriano but the opposite happened.

    The offense going anemic is what caused us the series against the Indians and what slid us from 1st place in AL east into wild card.
    So he didnít address the core and it cost us? Grilli fell apart in the playoffs. Benoit never made it to the playoffs.

  12. #237
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    Grilli's ERA in the playoffs in 2016 was 0.00.

    Benoit got injured in Sept I believe so hard to replace that.

    There wasnt anything to address with the core. If the players underperform when it matters the most thats on them. We walked off the Os and swept the Rangers. It went bad when the offense coudlnt hit against the Indians.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Please elaborate. What have I pivoted on?
    Well, for starters your 2025 prediction. There's plenty other stuff as well but it's not worth my time considering you're only looking for an argument. As per usual.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    So he didnít address the core and it cost us? Grilli fell apart in the playoffs. Benoit never made it to the playoffs.
    Pretty hard to address the core when they're all over 30 and/or making north of 20 mil a year. All thanks to this guy who you seem to think was an amazing GM lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Well, for starters your 2025 prediction. There's plenty other stuff as well but it's not worth my time considering you're only looking for an argument. As per usual.
    Why donít you tell me about my prediction? Because I explained it clearly when I originally said it, and have reiterated it several times because it clearly flew over your head.

    If you can even comprehend what Iím asking of you here: tell me what you think I predicted. The thing that you keep bringing up like itís some valid point that delegitimizes my points.

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