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  1. #4546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Underwood sucks. Maples sucks too but he has the arm of God, i guess they're waiting on a prayer.
    Maples is the kind of guy who will finally "get it" when he is out of the Cubs organization. Not saying he has been hindered by the Cubs, just saying some guys need a new voice for them to finally get it, see Jake Arrieta.
    Screw sabermetics.

  2. #4547
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    On Marquez;

    I think fans have a terrible habit of looking at guys like Marquez and decide just because they throw hard, that they must end up in the BP. This is a pitcher who took a significant improvement in his control middle of 2019, and has 2 very high end pitches already in his fastball and his slider. His third offerings are improving and as long as he keeps a 97+mph fastball and a good slider he'll only need it as a pitch that gets thrown, but isn't necessary. His mechanics are a lot cleaner and his consistency in 2019 took a major jump (it's the reason for the lower walk totals. You can see this carry through to AA late in the season; it wasn't just a situation where he was overpowering). He's had no injury concerns we know about (though sounds like there was a minor injury last year, though nothing that bad). That changeup has improved so much that his coaches at single-A credited it with the reason for the jump in quality. If the changeup is a viable pitch, which in 2019 it started to flash, he's every bit of a SP.

    His makeup? You have no idea what his makeup is. I assure you, when Kyle Hendricks was 22 years old, no one on this board thought his makeup was elite, now he's like the gold standard. Let's shy away from deciding what his makeup is, as if any of us have ever spoken a single sentence with him, let alone know his work ethic, his drive or him personally enough to compare his makeup to that of another MLB player. If anything, I think he's showing the signs of a kid with great makeup. He was not a big sign when he put pen to paper. He has worked himself from a no one to a top-100 prospect, and he's improved his secondary offerings and his delivery. I mean, the damn MiLB pitching coordinator of the Cubs raved about his work ethic. Could it be Coach-Speak? Sure. But let's stop acting like his makeup is somehow in question. I had this issue when people called Darvish soft (he was hurt), and I have this issue now. We. Have. No. Idea. So take it out of the equation when you evaluate him, especially if you're using it against him. There are situations where guys get in trouble off the field where you can legitimately say you have an issue with his makeup, but we have no idea if he's "not Kyle Hendricks". If you want to say something like "people who have a great work ethic are very rare, so it may be unlikely he's got that type of work ethic", fair enough - guys who have the Tom Brady type of desire and need to be the best on the field are incredibly rare, so it's fair to say that. But to say things definitively, is inane.

    Marquez is a great prospect. He's got legitimate TORP stuff, he's made improvements his entire career; to his delivery, to his secondary stuff, and working on the changeup. I see no reason to bin him to the BP as some are wont to do (I think it has to do with his fastball more than anything; for some reason fans want to throw guys to the pen if they throw hard). If he ends up in the BP, he's got every bit of ceiling to be a Chapman type there, and likely, be able to go multiple innings ala Josh Hader. Will he get there? I have no idea. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe the 2 month run of dominance in A to AA was just 2 months. Pitchers are weird, things happen. And it's always easier to say a prospect will bust than become an elite player (it's like betting a lottery ticket won't win anything. Duh). But I think Cubs fans are unnecessarily down on him (either throwing him immediately into the BP camp or because of like, one bad inning where he clearly was thrown off) right now. He's exciting. He's got almost everything we could ask for. I want to see him start in AA or higher and get 2-3 good months in. Then give him some BP time in the MLB this year and let him settle in for the stretch run; even if the Cubs aren't super contending. Maybe a spot start in September. Go Adam Wainwright here.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 03-02-2021 at 05:51 PM.

  3. #4548
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    On Maples;

    He debuted what seemed like a very different release than in the past. Could be part of why Underwood is gone and Maples isnt.

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

  4. #4549
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Your data on Farnsworth has nothing to do with his time as a Cub which I'm referring.

    I never said Farnsworth is Marquez, I said if you throw 98-100+ and everything else sucks and your fastball is as straight as a board you can get hit around like a Farnsworth and it doesn't matter what hand you throw with.
    Letís make a list of lefties who threw 98-100+ with solid command who sucked. You go first.

    The issue for Marquez will be if he can command his stuff. If he can and heís healthy then heís not going to suck. Itís TBD if he can make it as a starter or if heís destined for the pen, but itís very premature to predict that he will become a bust. Thereís zero legitimate reason to think heíll bust other than ďheís a pitching prospect so who knows.Ē
    Last edited by CP_414; 03-02-2021 at 07:08 PM.

  5. #4550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Makeup has far more importance for a pitcher. Ask Carl Edwards Jr. and Kyle Hendricks about makeup. I'm not saying I know about his makeup or saying he's Edwards Jr., but i'm confident he isn't Hendricks or Prior in the makeup department.
    Donít pretend like you know anything about his makeup. You donít. You watched him pitch two thirds of an inning.

    Donít pretend you know anything about Edwards makeup either. Edwards came from nothing. He was playing in a semi pro league when he was discovered. He was a 48th round draft pick, a round that doesnít exist anymore. He turned himself into a top 100 prospect and a guy with 4 years of MLB service time. He struggles with command. Thatís not a failure of makeup. Itís not a mental failing. Itís a physical skill that is hard for players to master. Edwards is a massive success story, not some failure.

  6. #4551
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    On Marquez;

    I think fans have a terrible habit of looking at guys like Marquez and decide just because they throw hard, that they must end up in the BP. This is a pitcher who took a significant improvement in his control middle of 2019, and has 2 very high end pitches already in his fastball and his slider. His third offerings are improving and as long as he keeps a 97+mph fastball and a good slider he'll only need it as a pitch that gets thrown, but isn't necessary. His mechanics are a lot cleaner and his consistency in 2019 took a major jump (it's the reason for the lower walk totals. You can see this carry through to AA late in the season; it wasn't just a situation where he was overpowering). He's had no injury concerns we know about (though sounds like there was a minor injury last year, though nothing that bad). That changeup has improved so much that his coaches at single-A credited it with the reason for the jump in quality. If the changeup is a viable pitch, which in 2019 it started to flash, he's every bit of a SP.

    His makeup? You have no idea what his makeup is. I assure you, when Kyle Hendricks was 22 years old, no one on this board thought his makeup was elite, now he's like the gold standard. Let's shy away from deciding what his makeup is, as if any of us have ever spoken a single sentence with him, let alone know his work ethic, his drive or him personally enough to compare his makeup to that of another MLB player. If anything, I think he's showing the signs of a kid with great makeup. He was not a big sign when he put pen to paper. He has worked himself from a no one to a top-100 prospect, and he's improved his secondary offerings and his delivery. I mean, the damn MiLB pitching coordinator of the Cubs raved about his work ethic. Could it be Coach-Speak? Sure. But let's stop acting like his makeup is somehow in question. I had this issue when people called Darvish soft (he was hurt), and I have this issue now. We. Have. No. Idea. So take it out of the equation when you evaluate him, especially if you're using it against him. There are situations where guys get in trouble off the field where you can legitimately say you have an issue with his makeup, but we have no idea if he's "not Kyle Hendricks". If you want to say something like "people who have a great work ethic are very rare, so it may be unlikely he's got that type of work ethic", fair enough - guys who have the Tom Brady type of desire and need to be the best on the field are incredibly rare, so it's fair to say that. But to say things definitively, is inane.

    Marquez is a great prospect. He's got legitimate TORP stuff, he's made improvements his entire career; to his delivery, to his secondary stuff, and working on the changeup. I see no reason to bin him to the BP as some are wont to do (I think it has to do with his fastball more than anything; for some reason fans want to throw guys to the pen if they throw hard). If he ends up in the BP, he's got every bit of ceiling to be a Chapman type there, and likely, be able to go multiple innings ala Josh Hader. Will he get there? I have no idea. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe the 2 month run of dominance in A to AA was just 2 months. Pitchers are weird, things happen. And it's always easier to say a prospect will bust than become an elite player (it's like betting a lottery ticket won't win anything. Duh). But I think Cubs fans are unnecessarily down on him (either throwing him immediately into the BP camp or because of like, one bad inning where he clearly was thrown off) right now. He's exciting. He's got almost everything we could ask for. I want to see him start in AA or higher and get 2-3 good months in. Then give him some BP time in the MLB this year and let him settle in for the stretch run; even if the Cubs aren't super contending. Maybe a spot start in September. Go Adam Wainwright here.
    Excellent work on this post.

    He's been on my radar for 3 seasons now. I love him! But I think he ends up in the pen because of his 100+ velo. There's not a lot of guys that throw fast that for 100+ pitches. And in the event they do, I personally see an injury. I think to stay in the rotation, he has to settle in at about 96-98. Which is still veryt solid for a starter. But it's not 102. I think that if his velo goes down to that level to remain a starter, he now becomes more hitable. Just my thoughts here.

  7. #4552
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Excellent work on this post.

    He's been on my radar for 3 seasons now. I love him! But I think he ends up in the pen because of his 100+ velo. There's not a lot of guys that throw fast that for 100+ pitches. And in the event they do, I personally see an injury. I think to stay in the rotation, he has to settle in at about 96-98. Which is still veryt solid for a starter. But it's not 102. I think that if his velo goes down to that level to remain a starter, he now becomes more hitable. Just my thoughts here.
    If he settled in and averaged 95 mph, he'd be the hardest throwing SP who was LH in baseball. By a full MPH. If he sits 96-98 on average, he'll basically be lapping the field over and over. I don't always think people realize how rare it is for for a LHP to throw as hard as Marquez.

    I don't agree with him being as a BP arm. He's got 2 legit pitches today, he's got consistency and control that's made major improvements and a changeup that's flashing. That changeup will be the difference between his SP or not, but I think it's moving in the right direction. I'm not super worried about injury with him; even if he's only a 5 IP guy. 5 IP of 98 mph LHP is something no other team in baseball can say they have. The Cubs seem to think he can start; so do I.

  8. #4553
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Donít pretend like you know anything about his makeup. You donít. You watched him pitch two thirds of an inning.
    I know that at this point it's not on the high end because he came up in his debut and totally fell apart and looked mentally lost land like a deer caught in headlights. A player who was strong mentally would not have that happen to them.

    But that's also his inexperience talking. He could be fine in a couple years with more experience and more time in the MLB. He's still very green and I wouldn't rush him.

    Donít pretend you know anything about Edwards makeup either. Edwards came from nothing. He was playing in a semi pro league when he was discovered. He was a 48th round draft pick, a round that doesnít exist anymore. He turned himself into a top 100 prospect and a guy with 4 years of MLB service time. He struggles with command. Thatís not a failure of makeup. Itís not a mental failing. Itís a physical skill that is hard for players to master. Edwards is a massive success story, not some failure.
    Carl Edwards Jr. is weak mentally. He fell apart mentally on the mound before our eyes and everybody knows it, and we can go through the posts on this forum to show that. He has fragile self-confidence.

  9. #4554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post



    Carl Edwards Jr. is weak mentally. He fell apart mentally on the mound before our eyes and everybody knows it, and we can go through the posts on this forum to show that. He has fragile self-confidence.
    God I hate this type of ****. He came from nothing, was expected to be nothing in baseball, fought and clawed his way to a MLB career. But somehow some guy at home will insist he's mentally weak. What have you done in your life that compares? By these stupid standards you can find a way to call everybody in the world mentally weak. Quit trying to belittle athletes based on like five minutes you saw on a field. You don't know a damn thing about the guy.
    Last edited by Sofnr; 03-02-2021 at 08:33 PM.

  10. #4555
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    I know that at this point it's not on the high end because he came up in his debut and totally fell apart and looked mentally lost land like a deer caught in headlights. A player who was strong mentally would not have that happen to them.

    But that's also his inexperience talking. He could be fine in a couple years with more experience and more time in the MLB. He's still very green and I wouldn't rush him.



    Carl Edwards Jr. is weak mentally. He fell apart mentally on the mound before our eyes and everybody knows it, and we can go through the posts on this forum to show that. He has fragile self-confidence.
    So Nico Hoerner, the 1st round pick who came up and has a 73 wRC+ is one of the people you highlight as having great makeup and Carl Edwards, the 48th round pick who turned himself into a guy with a respectable career is your example of bad makeup. Interesting. Brailyn Marquez the moderate signing bonus signee from the DR who came to America and become a top prospect has poor makeup because he was wild in his first two thirds of an inning. Very interesting.

    Mark Prior was another name you mentioned with great makeup. He would never fall apart in a big spot when something didnít go his way. Right?
    Last edited by CP_414; 03-02-2021 at 08:41 PM.

  11. #4556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sofnr View Post
    God I hate this type of ****. He came from nothing, was expected to be nothing in baseball, fought and clawed his way to a MLB career. But somehow some guy at home will insist he's mentally weak. What have you done in your life that compares? By these stupid standards you can find a way to call everybody in the world mentally weak. Quit trying to belittle athletes based on like five minutes you saw on a field. You don't know a damn thing about the guy.
    Your emotions are irrelevant. I can compare him to everyone else in major league baseball over my lifetime that i've watched baseball. If you disagree that's fine. A small minority of pitchers implode mentally when they face a bad spell. Edwards totally unraveled mentally.

    Edwards was drafted low but had a very good career in the minors. He's physically gifted.

  12. #4557
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    So Nico Hoerner, the 1st round pick who came up and has a 73 wRC+ is one of the people you highlight as having great makeup and Carl Edwards, the 48th round pick who turned himself into a guy with a respectable career is your example of bad makeup.
    Correct.

    Makeup has little to do with where you were drafted or your statistical value on the field, it has to do with how you carry yourself and deal with stress and adversity. I'd say there's more stress on a player drafted highly than drafted low where's there's no expectations to live up to.

    Interesting. Brailyn Marquez the moderate signing bonus signee from the DR who came to America and become a top prospect has poor makeup because he was wild in his first two thirds of an inning. Very interesting.
    I never said he had poor makeup. I said he doesn't have high-end makeup. I'm not saying he has a makeup problem, he'll probably be totally fine makeup-wise.

  13. #4558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Correct.

    Makeup has little to do with where you were drafted or your statistical value on the field, it has to do with how you carry yourself and deal with stress and adversity. I'd say there's more stress on a player drafted highly than drafted low where's there's no expectations to live up to.



    I never said he had poor makeup. I said he doesn't have high-end makeup. I'm not saying he has a makeup problem, he'll probably be totally fine makeup-wise.
    Lol. Nonsense. How does Nico carry himself better and deal with stress and adversity better than CJ? Nico has failed to this point in MLB despite having first round ability. How in the world is he the example of plus makeup?

    Makeup is about character. Itís about getting the most out of your ability. The 48th round pick who pushed himself to get better to the point of having a legit Mlb career is a plus makeup guy. The 22 year old top prospect who got better every year has shown no signs of makeup issues. Stop pretending you can see his soul because he was wild in one outing.

    What a stupid hill to die on.


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  14. #4559
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    What a stupid hill to die on.
    You're arguing that CJ Edwards has plus makeup.

  15. #4560
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    Wow. Determining how a "player holds himself on the field" in his very first appearance is a horrid, horrible, and terrible way to determine a person's makeup. If we're going to judge trash that way, the Cubs should go out of their way to sign Brett Pill away from the KBO because in 2011, he hit a HR in his first at bat.

    (For all those wondering, Brett Pill hit a HR in his first PA in 2011. His "makeup" was so good, he had a 91 wRC+ in the MLB).

    The Cubs also claimed Sergio Alcantara off waivers from the Tigers. He, too, hit a HR in his first AB. Great makeup. Probably should start at 2b. Right?

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