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  1. #3511
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I dont believe the Cubs caught "lightening in a bottle" in 2016. They were almost 100 game winners in 2015. They won 90+ games in 2017, and 2018. They won the division 3 of the next 4 years. The Chicago Cubs were the best team in 2016, and one of the 2 best teams in the NL between 2015 and 2020. Catching lightening in a bottle represents what they did as one, magical season, partially by luck. The Miami Marlins in 2002 caught lightening in the bottle. The Cubs in 2016 did not.

    Secondly, the Cubs could have easily thrown money at this roster this offseason and not hurt anything long term. Most of the contract being handed out, outside of the Springer type deals are for 1 or 2 years. The Chicago Cubs were the best team in the NL Central and the Central will remain terrible. They would have been able to spend $50m under the threshold, if we're going to use that as an artificial line. They could have easily walked in 2021 with a handful of 1/2 year deals, not extend the core, and been a 90+ win team beating on the hapless NL Central. Do I think they'd have been a top-3 NL Team? Probably not. Do I think they'd have been a favorite in the NL? Probably not. But best laid plans don't always go the way you want them, and walking into the post season as the champs of the NL Central puts you in a very real conversation for winning a WS. And then you can still let everyone go at seasons end if you so choose.

    This is the Chicago Cubs. This is what good franchises do. They don't tank twice in 10 years and they don't give up a competitive window. The 2021 Cubs could have easily used a buyers market to their advantage. They didn't. There's no excuse.
    "Lightening in a bottle" is a stretch. As soon as I sent it, I knew it.

    You're going to disagree with me, but I don't think "the core" is very good. Not bad, but not what they once were. I don't think they could win with these guys, even if they added. I think most fans are hanging on to something that is no longer there. If they were very good, the Cubs would have extended them. These guys are not very good anymore. Why? Who the **** knows. I thought this team would dominate for 7-10 years. It's time to move on from them.
    Last edited by thawv; 01-23-2021 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #3512
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    It depends on what you consider to be a "top" prospect, but taking the subjective nature into it, the Cubs acquired Addison Russell from the Samardjiza trade, and he was easily a "top prospect". They also received well regarded prospects like CJ Edwards (who made appearances on top-100 lists), Aroyds Vizcaino (who made many top-40 lists) and Anthony Rizzo (although he had lost his "prospect" status was less than 200 PA's past being a top-40 prospect).
    That's it! Addi was a top 10 guy at the time of the trade.

    Without looking it up, I can't imagine CJ was ever a top prospect. I thought he was a throw in. Yes to the Rizzo analogy.

  3. #3513
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    "Lightening in a bottle" is a stretch. As soon as I sent it, I knew it.

    You're going to disagree with me, but I don't think "the core" is very good. Not bad, but not what they once were. I don't think they could win with these guys, even if they added. I think most are hanging on to something that is no longer there. If they were very good, the Cubs would have extended them. These guys are not very good anymore. Why? Who the **** knows. I thought this team would dominate for 7-10 years. It's time to move on from them.
    The Cubs just threw the biggest contract they've doled out in over 2 years to Austin Romine, and it's for $2.5m. The Chicago Cubs have made it incredibly clear over the last two years that they don't care how good anyone is, they're not giving them any money. I don't think this has anything to do with what they were. The Cubs just refused to pay Kyle Schwarber less than market value, at age 27. You don't even need to think he's very good...it was going to be like $8m and for 1 year. So no, I don't agree with that assessment.

    Secondly, even if you don't think this "core" is great any longer, they don't have to be to win 88 games and the NL Central right now. Frankly, as long as the Cubs spent any time or effort into building some depth, they'd have walked into 2021 the clear divisional favorites. The Cubs didn't have to extend them, you can still "move on" from them at the end of the year if you so choose. But what are they gaining by "moving on" from them right now? They're going to give give Kris Bryant away for some low level lottery ticket. What is that getting the Cubs that letting Bryant walk at the end of the season isn't? What did they get in a Darvish trade that they couldn't have gotten next year?

    Everyone is so eager to "move on" that they're just ready to throw things in the trash without really asking themselves if it's worth it. The Cubs could have marched right into 2021, easily the best team in the NL Central and had a very real chance to actually "catch lightening" in the post season. They'd have given up almost nothing other than money to do so, and could have then "walked away" from these players in the offseason, with nothing else lost. If the argument is "they're probably not winning a WS" if they do that, then yeah, I'm not claiming they would. But the difference between "probably not winning a WS" and what they're doing has netted the Cubs next to nothing at this point, as they could have signed short 1/2 year deals for depth (and done so easily) in this market, still not extended anyone and walked away, traded players like Darvish next year and probably gotten back a similar return, and actually had a winning team while doing so. The only difference is in spending short term money.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 01-23-2021 at 04:22 PM.

  4. #3514
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    That's it! Addi was a top 10 guy at the time of the trade.

    Without looking it up, I can't imagine CJ was ever a top prospect. I thought he was a throw in. Yes to the Rizzo analogy.
    CJ Edwards made multiple top-50 lists. He made BA's top-30 list in 2014. He wasn't a throw in, he was literally the best piece in the Garza trade.

  5. #3515
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    CJ Edwards made multiple top-50 lists. He made BA's top-30 list in 2014. He wasn't a throw in, he was literally the best piece in the Garza trade.
    I was thinking much higher than that. But ok. So if we do actually consider him a top prospect, that leaves us with 2 during this time. No?

  6. #3516
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    I was thinking much higher than that. But ok. So if we do actually consider him a top prospect, that leaves us with 2 during this time. No?
    Regardless of how many ďtop prospectsĒ they acquired the point was that trade values are lower now than they were then.

    A blow it up rebuild is likely to be a long road to success unless they spend huge. Good luck acquiring another Rizzo, KB, Jake, Hendricks, and Lester over 2-3 years. They hit the jackpot last time. They are still getting a Rizzo now. They arenít getting a Russell type prospect. They will need extreme luck to find a Jake or Hendricks.

    Another multi year tear down with low payrolls and 90+ loss seasons should be viewed as a massive failure of ownership and the front office.

  7. #3517
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    I was thinking much higher than that. But ok. So if we do actually consider him a top prospect, that leaves us with 2 during this time. No?
    I mean Edward's was a top 30 prospect. There werent many prospects higher then that traded then that and are less traded today.

    Again it's subjective. Vizcaino made top 50s. Rizzo top 50s. Olt was a year away from being a top prospect. It's subjective. And the takeaway is that even less of those types get traded today. So even if we got 2 or 3 or 4...itll be less in 2021 and beyond.

    A full tear down is much harder today than in the past.

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 01-23-2021 at 05:30 PM.

  8. #3518
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Regardless of how many ďtop prospectsĒ they acquired the point was that trade values are lower now than they were then.

    A blow it up rebuild is likely to be a long road to success unless they spend huge. Good luck acquiring another Rizzo, KB, Jake, Hendricks, and Lester over 2-3 years. They hit the jackpot last time. They are still getting a Rizzo now. They arenít getting a Russell type prospect. They will need extreme luck to find a Jake or Hendricks.

    Another multi year tear down with low payrolls and 90+ loss seasons should be viewed as a massive failure of ownership and the front office.
    That kind of luck and timing is likely not going to happen.

    So here's the question. How many of these guys would you keep for their cost? I mean, they may have been able to win the division with a 240 million dollar payroll, but that's about as far as they would have gone. I hate that it's happening, but if these are the guys that I was expected to pay of ton of money to, I would just move on and start over. They should have been adding pieces for the last 4 years, but they didn't. Now they're stuck with average players making too much money. It's too late to add to average players and expect to win a WS.

  9. #3519
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I mean Edward's was a top 30 prospect. There werent many prospects higher then that traded then that and are less traded today.

    Again it's subjective. Vizcaino made top 50s. Rizzo top 50s. Olt was a year away from being a top prospect. It's subjective. And the takeaway is that even less of those types get traded today. So even if we got 2 or 3 or 4...itll be less in 2021 and beyond.

    A full tear down is much harder today than in the past.

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk
    I agree with everything. Like I just posted, they should have been adding pieces here and there. They did nothing. of the sort. Now they can't win with the guys they have.

  10. #3520
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    That kind of luck and timing is likely not going to happen.

    So here's the question. How many of these guys would you keep for their cost? I mean, they may have been able to win the division with a 240 million dollar payroll, but that's about as far as they would have gone. I hate that it's happening, but if these are the guys that I was expected to pay of ton of money to, I would just move on and start over. They should have been adding pieces for the last 4 years, but they didn't. Now they're stuck with average players making too much money. It's too late to add to average players and expect to win a WS.
    I donít care how many of the current guys they keep. I think there was a core group there that is worth keeping and others that should be replaced, but if they want to replace all 26 guys and spend $210 million to put together a new roster, then cool. Do it.

    What Iím not ok with is dropping payroll to $140 million and trading guys to save money rather than acquire talent and losing for 3 years while running out low payrolls. Thatís unacceptable. They pulled it off once in the last decade. To ask Cubs fans to wait through another rebuild that will be harder to execute than the 1st one, this soon, should be a non starter. Yet here we are.

  11. #3521
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    I donít care how many of the current guys they keep. I think there was a core group there that is worth keeping and others that should be replaced, but if they want to replace all 26 guys and spend $210 million to put together a new roster, then cool. Do it.

    What Iím not ok with is dropping payroll to $140 million and trading guys to save money rather than acquire talent and losing for 3 years while running out low payrolls. Thatís unacceptable. They pulled it off once in the last decade. To ask Cubs fans to wait through another rebuild that will be harder to execute than the 1st one, this soon, should be a non starter. Yet here we are.
    Yes...there's no reason why they can't compete every year with the revenue they have.

    It's their own fault that they are in this position. They did this to themselves. Now, if they want to clean house, which I'm in favor of, they have the financial resources to replenish their needs immediately. But they're not. Lining their pockets is first and foremost. Winning is a bonus. I feel like they couldn't wait until they were able to do this. I also think they're upset that they haven't been able to move some of these guys already to further increase their profits.

    It really sucks from a fans stand point, but they don't care about the fans. They don't care about winning. They don't care how people feel or think of them. They care about money. They don't look at the game the same way as we do. We see a game of baseball. They see a game of profits.

  12. #3522
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Yes...there's no reason why they can't compete every year with the revenue they have.

    It's their own fault that they are in this position. They did this to themselves. Now, if they want to clean house, which I'm in favor of, they have the financial resources to replenish their needs immediately. But they're not. Lining their pockets is first and foremost. Winning is a bonus. I feel like they couldn't wait until they were able to do this. I also think they're upset that they haven't been able to move some of these guys already to further increase their profits.

    It really sucks from a fans stand point, but they don't care about the fans. They don't care about winning. They don't care how people feel or think of them. They care about money. They don't look at the game the same way as we do. We see a game of baseball. They see a game of profits.
    Right. We can disagree about how much of a house cleaning is needed and which guys should go vs which ones should stay and who they should bring in. Iíd hope we could all agree that they should try to win. Far too often under this ownership group the Cubs have simply not tried to win. I think thatís bad. If other people are ok with it, thatís their choice, but I think it sucks a lot.

  13. #3523
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    One big thing that effed the Cubs was going all-in and trading Gleyber, Eloy, and Cease. If we still had those guys we could afford to let most of the core walk in FA and still have a young core to build around with Nico plus Happ. The only major league ready young guys we have is Nico and Adbert. The Dodgers keep winning because they don't trade the farm away to win it all. Maybe that cost them a ring along the way who knows.

  14. #3524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    One big thing that effed the Cubs was going all-in and trading Gleyber, Eloy, and Cease. If we still had those guys we could afford to let most of the core walk in FA and still have a young core to build around with Nico plus Happ. The only major league ready young guys we have is Nico and Adbert. The Dodgers keep winning because they don't trade the farm away to win it all. Maybe that cost them a ring along the way who knows.
    I wouldnít say the Cubs effed up at all by trading Gleyber. The team won the ultimate prize is Baseball and that trade played a large part. Yes, maybe an internal closer could have closed the series out against the Giants in Game 5, multiple relievers could have got the final 8 outs against Cleveland in Game 5 and the 6-3 lead against Cleveland might have been preserved in Game 7 if the team never made the trade for Aroldis but we will never know.

    Winning it all was what they had set out to accomplish, even if the window has ended up closing 3-4 years earlier than it could have if the team still had Gleyber, Jimenez and Cease (traded to try to win another one) on the roster. Those three players plus the same roster as today guarantees the Cubs no World Series success in the future, especially against a few teams in Baseball that are absolutely stacked. If a team can win a World Series in between a rebuild starting and the window closing, thatís all you can ask for. Not every rebuilding team can say that once the window shuts. Cleveland are a good example.
    Last edited by JHBulls; 01-24-2021 at 01:07 AM.

  15. #3525
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    https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1...939321344?s=21

    Okay. Maybe Dom IS connected. Holy crap this is confusing lol

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