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  1. #3496
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cuzi View Post
    Ya they didnt add anything. Jon Lester didnt happen. Dexter Fowler didnt happen. Ben Zobrist didnt happen. Jason Heyward didnt happen. Yu Darvish didnt happen.

    If only the Ricketts spent money to add to the roster so the Cubs could have won a WS.
    Can you read?

    I said they went years when they were winning when they didnít add anyone. I didnít say they never added anyone.

    They signed Darvish prior to 2018. They didnít sign a significant player since then. The closest they had was Kimbrel but that happened because Zo paid his contract that first year. That Darvish deal was years ago.

    Keep shooting for strawman arguments though because you canít keep up with real ones.

  2. #3497
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    I accepted Ricketts tearing down a historic landmark like Wrigley Field and turning it into an amusement park because it helped get us a WS. Now i'm just really PO'd.

  3. #3498
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    Jul 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Can you read?

    I said they went years when they were winning when they didnít add anyone. I didnít say they never added anyone.

    They signed Darvish prior to 2018. They didnít sign a significant player since then. The closest they had was Kimbrel but that happened because Zo paid his contract that first year. That Darvish deal was years ago.

    Keep shooting for strawman arguments though because you canít keep up with real ones.
    I'm not shooting for anything. The bottom line is that you keep saying that the Ricketts didn't spend when they did spend. The Cubs havent been top 3 in payroll because the Ricketts didn't spend money. You are being dishonest with yourself. The second the Cubs were ready to contend the Ricketts opened up their wallet and spent big. From 2017 and beyond, Theo swung and missed on pretty much every move he made. That's not on the Ricketts.

  4. #3499
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    Feb 2012
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    I have accepted that we are rebuilding. If we arent anywhere near competing in June trade everyone and start over. Will always love all the guys from 2016 but its time to move forward. Im pretty excited about a lot of the guys in the farm. Hopefully they hit their potential

    Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

  5. #3500
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cuzi View Post
    I'm not shooting for anything. The bottom line is that you keep saying that the Ricketts didn't spend when they did spend. The Cubs havent been top 3 in payroll because the Ricketts didn't spend money. You are being dishonest with yourself. The second the Cubs were ready to contend the Ricketts opened up their wallet and spent big. From 2017 and beyond, Theo swung and missed on pretty much every move he made. That's not on the Ricketts.
    Nonsense. Iíve been very clear about when the Cubs have spent and when they havenít and what Theo deserves blame for vs what ownership deserves blame for. You are completely refusing to blame ownership for anything. Itís pathetic.

    Ownership made the decision to cut payrolls which led to tanking. Theo built a champion. 2016 was the first time they had a very strong payroll after the tank. They won the World Series. The following year they cut the CBT payroll by $22 million. In 2018 they spent well but under the tax. In 2019 they spent significantly over the tax but they refused to add anyone significant externally. They had obvious holes and did not address them, but overall payroll was strong. In 2020 they were over the prorated tax line, but same situation as 2019 they refused to address problems because it cost money. Now they are back to tanking.

    So 2012-2021 they have 10 years of payroll. They went over the tax 3 times. They were 10th or lower in team payroll 4 times so far (maybe 5 out of 10 once 2021 starts.) They had 2 years with competitive but below the tax payrolls. You want to bend over backwards praising them for the few years they spent well despite not adding to fix problems and completely ignore how often they have not spent at a competitive level even though the Cubs are consistently a top revenue team.

    I disagree with you. The Ricketts suck. Even on the low bar of comparing them to other current Mlb owners they are below average. Theo made mistakes but the good far outweighs the bad with Theo. The bad outweighs the good with ownership.

  6. #3501
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Iím guessing Romine is the Opening Day catcher after they trade Willson.
    Probably hits 3rd

  7. #3502
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Iím not going to be ignorant and act like the Cubs tanking twice in a decade is acceptable.

    The Ricketts spend on players sometimes. They do not consistently have a payroll needed to have a team that is consistently relevant. Thatís the reality of their ownership.
    Thing is it's hard to know if they would have tanked had COVID not happened.

  8. #3503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Thing is it's hard to know if they would have tanked had COVID not happened.
    COVID isnít exclusive to the north side of Chicago. How many teams are sitting down $80 million in payroll right now?

  9. #3504
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    Is that you Tom Ricketts?

    Sure, Ricketts allowed Theo to spend big to build the championship team but have you been paying attention the last few years? There is no reason this team should not be spending year in and year out. The revenues for this team are substantial. There is a reason the owners didnít want to release financial information to the MLBPA during the 2020 season negotiations.
    Last edited by s2obed; 01-23-2021 at 12:04 AM.

  10. #3505
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    COVID isnít exclusive to the north side of Chicago. How many teams are sitting down $80 million in payroll right now?
    If this is updated, 20 as of now are 80 mil under the Threshold
    https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2021/#


    Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by chibears55; 01-23-2021 at 12:58 AM.

  11. #3506
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    2020 Chicago Cubs Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    If this is updated, 20 as of now are 80 mil under the Threshold

    Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk
    Iím talking about reducing payroll by $80-100 mil year over year.

    The threshold is irrelevant for 20 or so teams. Mlb doesnít have the level of revenue sharing as the NFL. This isnít a salary cap situation where teams all spend about the same amount of money. The Cubs are in a class with the biggest teams and the big revenues and the big spenders. The Cubs bring in a lot more revenue than most teams. Hundreds of millions more per year. Itís pointless to compare them to small market teams. They should be compared against the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, etc, not the Marlins, Brewers, Pirates, Rays, Royals, etc. Itís a different world for those teams.

    Which teams have dropped $80 million in payroll from 2020 to 2021? Is Covid a factor? Of course. Is Covid that much worse for the Cubs than it is for the other big teams? No. So far, the Cubs have been more aggressive in cutting payroll than pretty much any team.
    Last edited by CP_414; 01-23-2021 at 01:02 AM.

  12. #3507
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD94 View Post
    Given what we know now, it seems more obvious that Ricketts were unwilling to actually dish out the money to extend these guys. I mean theyíve hardly spent a dime in 2 years. That doesnít sound like a owner that was willing to give KB 200+ million.

    And they extended Rizzo years ago when we were coming in the back end of our rebuild and had money to spend. Plus is was insanely team friendly for 7/41 with the 2 options to get it to 9/74. That hardly counts.

    As far as Harper goes, there was no reason we still couldnít have paid him. Ricketts chose the cheap route to avoid a minimal penalty of being over the LT.

    Being over the LT with Kershawís contract, and Jansenís contract, Pollackís contract, taking on Priceís contract, and Bellinger and Seager making significant money in arbitration didnít stop the Dodgers from giving Betts $365 mil. And here they are still going after Bauer.

    Not to mention there were different ways to go about making everything work. If Theo would have had full financial support (realistically speaking) from Ricketts to go get a Harper and or trade for better players under control, itís impossible to know what he could have done to make the money work. Maybe he attaches a prospect to Heyward to get out of the majority of that contract. Maybe he doesnít do the Kimbrel deal if our financial situation was different. We also get in on the mid-tier free agents along the way that actually help, instead of Daniel Descalso and the however many relievers we gave a minor league contract with a ST invite to because we were too ďbrokeĒ to pay a decent reliever. There were tons of other paths we could have taken, which could have made this team look extremely different and extending our competitive window.

    Ricketts obviously decided he was done fishing out the money needed to continue improving our baseball team shortly after we won the World Series and after he WAY over spent in buying up property around Wrigley and the hotel and all that.
    There's a very good chance that the team saw what the core was becoming, and were never going to give any of them extensions.

    We should also consider that if the core remained good, will they have been looking to extend them? Will they have been willing to invest long term if they were better players.

    I think a big part of the spending stop is because they have no interest of paying these guys to be meh. So they are pocketing the money and starting over.

    Entering the season with the same group of guys, and throwing even more money at the team is just crazy. These guys are not the same guys that they were 4+ years ago. The Cubs have no interest in these guys anymore. The Cubs caught lightening in a bottle in 2016.

  13. #3508
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Nope. The Ricketts said the payrolls prior to Theo were ďunsustainable.Ē The tanking was going to happen no matter who got Theoís job. It just would have been done worse if basically anyone else got the job.

    The Ricketts decided they needed to cut payroll. Theo tanked and built a champion. The Ricketts said the money would be there to add when they were winning. Then they went years when they were winning without adding any significant outside pieces. Now they had the option to continue winning and the money is gone again and the Ricketts are not giving Jed a competitive payroll. Theo even gave them back $10 million. So now Jed is tanking again but this time teams arenít giving up top prospects for players via trade so they havenít picked up a single top prospect this offseason. Maybe one or two of the guys they acquired will become a top prospect in a few years. Letís hope that happens, but the priority is on moving money, not acquiring talent.

    The farm system is below average but not horrible. They have some solid pieces. Itís a lot better than it was when Theo got here. They should have about $150 million in payroll room opening up for 2022, but they donít. The money is the biggest piece that isnít there.

    The Red Sox won a World Series a couple of years after Theo left with a team built around players he brought to Boston. Then they won another World Series behind a lot of the same players a few years later. What a disaster he left them in Boston. Lol.
    You know a hell of lot more than I do regarding this. What top prospects did the Cubs receive during Theo's stay? I can't seem to remember any. Thanks.

  14. #3509
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    There's a very good chance that the team saw what the core was becoming, and were never going to give any of them extensions.

    We should also consider that if the core remained good, will they have been looking to extend them? Will they have been willing to invest long term if they were better players.

    I think a big part of the spending stop is because they have no interest of paying these guys to be meh. So they are pocketing the money and starting over.

    Entering the season with the same group of guys, and throwing even more money at the team is just crazy. These guys are not the same guys that they were 4+ years ago. The Cubs have no interest in these guys anymore. The Cubs caught lightening in a bottle in 2016.
    I dont believe the Cubs caught "lightening in a bottle" in 2016. They were almost 100 game winners in 2015. They won 90+ games in 2017, and 2018. They won the division 3 of the next 4 years. The Chicago Cubs were the best team in 2016, and one of the 2 best teams in the NL between 2015 and 2020. Catching lightening in a bottle represents what they did as one, magical season, partially by luck. The Miami Marlins in 2002 caught lightening in the bottle. The Cubs in 2016 did not.

    Secondly, the Cubs could have easily thrown money at this roster this offseason and not hurt anything long term. Most of the contract being handed out, outside of the Springer type deals are for 1 or 2 years. The Chicago Cubs were the best team in the NL Central and the Central will remain terrible. They would have been able to spend $50m under the threshold, if we're going to use that as an artificial line. They could have easily walked in 2021 with a handful of 1/2 year deals, not extend the core, and been a 90+ win team beating on the hapless NL Central. Do I think they'd have been a top-3 NL Team? Probably not. Do I think they'd have been a favorite in the NL? Probably not. But best laid plans don't always go the way you want them, and walking into the post season as the champs of the NL Central puts you in a very real conversation for winning a WS. And then you can still let everyone go at seasons end if you so choose.

    This is the Chicago Cubs. This is what good franchises do. They don't tank twice in 10 years and they don't give up a competitive window. The 2021 Cubs could have easily used a buyers market to their advantage. They didn't. There's no excuse.

  15. #3510
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    You know a hell of lot more than I do regarding this. What top prospects did the Cubs receive during Theo's stay? I can't seem to remember any. Thanks.
    It depends on what you consider to be a "top" prospect, but taking the subjective nature into it, the Cubs acquired Addison Russell from the Samardjiza trade, and he was easily a "top prospect". They also received well regarded prospects like CJ Edwards (who made appearances on top-100 lists), Aroyds Vizcaino (who made many top-40 lists) and Anthony Rizzo (although he had lost his "prospect" status was less than 200 PA's past being a top-40 prospect).

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