2021 Talk (too early?)

[WOwolfOL]

The Cubs won 300 games from 2015-2017 and a title.

Did the Astros and Dodgers also merely over-achieve one lousy season in the last 5?

Your expectations weren't met. Your expectations were out of whack.

[1908_Cubs]

Maybe it wasn’t due to work ethic but nobody improved from 2017 to 2020.

Maybe we should stop saying they’ve been underachieving and start saying they overachieved one year in 2016?

Once the Cubs got the organization straightened out, between 2015 and 2020, the Cubs were, at the very worst by every standard, the third most successful organization in MLB, and potentially tied for the best if we begin taking into account the Houston Astros cheating scandal. If you expected more then that, then what's been wrong the entire time was not the Cubs' run, but your expectations of what the Cubs run should have been.

The standards that were placed on the Cubs by some were next to impossible to reach. By any rational standard, 1 WS, 3 NLCS, 3 division titles, and 5 total playoffs in the run of 6 years should have been more than good enough. You simply cannot expect any more.

[PeanutPunch33]

The Cubs won 300 games from 2015-2017 and a title.

Did the Astros and Dodgers also merely over-achieve one lousy season in the last 5?

Your expectations weren't met. Your expectations were out of whack.

Well those teams went to 3 more combined WS appearances. won way more division titles, had way more all star caliber players, and I’d argue both of their windows are still wide open. A comparable team to the cubs is probably the nationals. Just a one hit, overachieving wonder.

[1908_Cubs]

Well those teams went to 3 more combined WS appearances. won way more division titles, had way more all star caliber players, and I’d argue both of their windows are still wide open. A comparable team to the cubs is probably the nationals. Just a one hit, overachieving wonder.

2015-2020 Chicago Cubs:
505 Wins
1 WS
3 CS
5 Playoffs
0 losing seasons

2015-2020 Astros
510 wins
2 WS
5 CS
5 Playoffs
1 Losing season

2015-2020 Dodgers
528 wins
1 WS
4 CS
6 playoffs
0 losing seasons


All three teams in that span were neck and neck. No other team is in the ballpark. You're complaining about, at the worst, the third best team in the entire sport for the last 6 seasons "under achieving". Would I liked to have won more? Certainly. But playoff success is hard to come by, some of it's simple luck (the Dodgers can attest to that). The Cubs won essentially, as many games as the Houston Astros did in the last 6 years and the Astros window is probably a year away from closing on them; players on their team have been declining, their system is running out of steam in areas, and they're getting expensive and about to start losing players. They just had a losing regular season.

And the Nationals over that span? They look like this:
476 Wins
1 WS
1 CS
3 playoffs
1 losing season

The Cubs well outpaced Washington in every category outside of WS where they tied. And the Nationals did pretty damn good, too.

[PeanutPunch33]

2015-2020 Chicago Cubs:
505 Wins
1 WS
3 CS
5 Playoffs
0 losing seasons

2015-2020 Astros
510 wins
2 WS
5 CS
5 Playoffs
1 Losing season

2015-2020 Dodgers
528 wins
1 WS
4 CS
6 playoffs
0 losing seasons


All three teams in that span were neck and neck. No other team is in the ballpark. You're complaining about, at the worst, the third best team in the entire sport for the last 6 seasons "under achieving". Would I liked to have won more? Certainly. But playoff success is hard to come by, some of it's simple luck (the Dodgers can attest to that). The Cubs won essentially, as many games as the Houston Astros did in the last 6 years and the Astros window is probably a year away from closing on them; players on their team have been declining, their system is running out of steam in areas, and they're getting expensive and about to start losing players. They just had a losing regular season.

And the Nationals over that span? They look like this:
476 Wins
1 WS
1 CS
3 playoffs
1 losing season

The Cubs well outpaced Washington in every category outside of WS where they tied. And the Nationals did pretty damn good, too.

Isn’t the Dodgers 15-20 3 WS appearance? They lost in back to back years to the Astros and Red Sox.

I’m not complaining about anything either. I’m very content with what the cubs have done. But it is a little disappointing they only came away with 1, and even more disappointing that the comparable teams (Astros Dodgers) all have at least 3-5 more years in their window and the Cubs don’t. The Astros came within 1.5 innings of another one, and I’d be stunned if the Dodgers don’t win another one. It just seems like the cubs were never remotely close after 2016. Not even remotely close.

[1908_Cubs]

Isn’t the Dodgers 15-20 3 WS appearance? They lost in back to back years to the Astros and Red Sox.

I’m not complaining about anything either. I’m very content with what the cubs have done. But it is a little disappointing they only came away with 1, and even more disappointing that the comparable teams (Astros Dodgers) all have at least 3-5 more years in their window and the Cubs don’t.

The Astros do not have three years left. Certainly not 5. They could lose Springer and Brantley to FA. Correa has 2 out of 3 of his last seasons well below 3 fWAR and has a contract coming up. Altuve was awful last year. Verlander is gone next year with TJS. Greinke has one year left.

Their window is closing up fast. 2021 could basically be their end. And they didn't take off until 2017. Their window won't have lasted much longer than the Cubs and their efforts will always have "they cheated" attached.



Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

[CP_414]

Nonsense but you can’t dispute any of it huh?

I just have no interest in having a conversation where you pretend you know **** about players attitudes and work ethics.

Like always you have no idea what you are talking about.

I guess it’s against forum rules but if you have a link you want to send Proximo so you two can talk somewhere else, I think it should be encouraged.

[PeanutPunch33]

I just have no interest in having a conversation where you pretend you know **** about players attitudes and work ethics.

Like always you have no idea what you are talking about.

I guess it’s against forum rules but if you have a link you want to send Proximo so you two can talk somewhere else, I think it should be encouraged.

Need a tissue? Or a new diaper? Get over it, people have different opinions than you do.

Maybe you can carry Schwarber’s bags for him on his flight to the Korean league, if you love him so much go and join him I think this should be encouraged

[CP_414]

Need a tissue? Or a new diaper? Get over it, people have different opinions than you do.

Maybe you can carry Schwarber’s bags for him on his flight to the Korean league, if you love him so much go and join him I think this should be encouraged

Get over what? You quoted me and then you responded when I avoided the nonsensical conversation.

You are a strange dude. I don’t know why you would think you have any effect on me. I just think you are a moron. Congrats...I guess.

[PeanutPunch33]

Get over what? You quoted me and then you responded when I avoided the nonsensical conversation.

You are a strange dude. I don’t know why you would think you have any effect on me. I just think you are a moron. Congrats...I guess.

Get over the fact that not all of us like Theo the way you do. You want to bear his children I get that completely but some of us are more critical

[La_bibbers]

How is the Schwarber thing conjecture? I’ve only seen two players in a cubs uniform get benched in the last 10 years for loafing around in the field. Russell and Schwarber. The guy certainly has no talent, but now it’s evident he has no desire or work ethic either. And I’ll always love Kb, I’m one of the few here that still wants him back and extended.

Either way, the trash is no longer on the curb, not worried about Russell or Schwarber. To your last point I’m not ungrateful, but this team became a hell of a lot more unlikeable after the Russell fiasco and the slap on the wrist he got from Theo.

He was benched or had his role deminished because he wasn't playing well. There is no evidence that was due to laziness. Only conjecture that spawned out of afforementioned saltiness that he never became a star. He simply set a standard that was too high in the 2 months he was called up in 2015/the 2016 world series and came back down to earth. You complain about laziness but this argument you're spinning is what's really lazy.

And I disagree. Russell is one thing, being critical of Theo in certain areas is another, but to have anything other than gratitude and good feelings about the core and front office as a whole is horribly ungrateful and reeking of unintelligence.

[CP_414]

Get over the fact that not all of us like Theo the way you do. You want to bear his children I get that completely but some of us are more critical

I can assure you I don’t give a **** what you like or dislike.

[PeanutPunch33]

He was benched or had his role deminished because he wasn't playing well. There is no evidence that was due to laziness.

And I disagree. Russell is one thing, being critical of Theo in certain areas is another, but to have anything other than gratitude and good feelings about the core and front office as a whole is horribly ungrateful.

So you don’t think there’s a correlation between getting benched and laziness/work ethic? Especially when it comes as the result of one play where he gave less than optimal effort.

I definitely agree and I’m not trying to come off as complaining or ungrateful. But now that I have that label here it’s hard to shed. Can’t even make a reasonable baseball point anymore that’s slightly critical without those thoughts coming from other people.

But if anybody here doesn’t think the cubs underachieved or that Theo didn’t have some very disappointing years here, you are very disconnected from how many, even most Cubs fans feel.

And there’s nothing wrong with that honestly, people just need to respect that other people have their own opinions.

[PeanutPunch33]

.

[La_bibbers]

So you don’t think there’s a correlation between getting benched and laziness/work ethic? Especially when it comes as the result of one play where he gave less than optimal effort.

I definitely agree and I’m not trying to come off as complaining or ungrateful. But now that I have that label here it’s hard to shed. Can’t even make a reasonable baseball point anymore without those thoughts coming from other people.

But if anybody here doesn’t think the cubs underachieved or that Theo didn’t have some very disappointing years here, you are very disconnected from how many, even most Cubs fans feel.

And there’s nothing wrong with that honestly, people just need to respect that other people have their own opinions.

Correlation /=/ causation. There's no evidence to suggest that Schwarber sucked because of laziness. It's conjecture that you made up. He might just not be that good at baseball. I don't think a guy with his level of success is prone to laziness. He notoriously lost a bunch of weight after he struggled in 2017, not to mention the work he put in just to get into the WS in 2016 despite horrific injuries. It's not a fair assumption to make without proper evidence. If you knew him personally or were a teammate/coach, it'd be different. But you're not. So stop doing it.

The point I'm making isn't to never be critical or to always be happy about everything, I'm not at all thrilled with where the Cubs are right now. But I also care about context and think ownership and bad luck play a lot more of a part in where the Cubs are headed than bad moves made by Theo.

This whole discussion began because there were people actively celebrating Theo's departure, which is a huge overreaction. If you want to align yourself closer to that side then have at it, but don't expect to be taken seriously. Even the most critical person shouldn't be dumb enough to act like Theo doesn't know what the hell he's doing or like he isn't very good at his job.

Opinions are one thing, but substaniated opinions >>>> unsubstantiated opinions. Not all opinions are respectable ones.