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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    This may sound good if winning was the priority. It's not. Money is the priority.
    Sure. But they're not going to dump to a payroll of $15m, either. So let's live in some sort of world where they're going to "try to thread the needle" as has been reported. Yes, they're going to dump salary. But it's not going to be some full sale firesale some people want. They're also not going to add anyone significant through FA this offseason.

    So, let's live in the most realistic world; most of the team will be back. Some of them, probably wont. But the most realistic thing to expect is a roster similar to last year, with at least 1/2 "core" losses. They'll probably get some MLB talent in there somewhere; perhaps a failed former top prospect (Kieboom types). Bringing it back that way probably still allows the Cubs to compete for a bad division, as much as we don't want to accept that. 84 wins might win the NL central. Considering where the Cubs seem to be heading, I think they'll at least be within a reasonable possibility of pulling that off with some good luck. Much like they pulled this year.

    What would I do? Probably move some guys the Cubs won't move; Darvish, Happ, Contreras. But I also find that unlikely at this stage.

    So again, I expect the Cubs to float a $155-175m payroll. I expect most of these players back. I think we'll lose someone in the "core" (probably Bryant). I think we'll probably end up bringing Lester back on some cheap, 1 year deal. I think we'll play the same bullpen game as last year. I expect the Cubs to once again be in the 75-85 win territory, and with a potential chance of winning the Central, simply because the Central sucks and everyone in the Central appears to also be playing the "we're super poor" game.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 11-13-2020 at 10:50 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I'm not against bringing someone else in to add new ideas, but this thought that "it's just time to move on from the most successful the team has been and one of the 3/4 most successful MLB franchises in the last 7 years" is pretty ridiculous.

    Let Hoyer take over the Theo spot. Bring in an interesting mind from outside of the organization to inject new ideas while sticking with a general plan of moving forward, as well, that stays somewhat in line with where we've been.

    Why everyone has been so excited to move on from Epstein/Hoyer is beyond my comprehension.
    Ok.....I can be on board with adding new ideas. But if they don't...I'm parting with Jed also.

    I'm done with living in the past. They have gotten worse each year that's passed by. They should have gotten better. They drafted guys that were MLB ready and they've gone in the wrong direction individually, and collectively. No development at all. It's time to move on.

    If they don't bring in some much different thinker, Jed will just continue this trend.

    I have much higher expectations than most on here. So it stands to reason, that I'm going to be less tolerant of declining baseball when I thought they would be a WS threat for several years. Especially with deep pockets, in a major market. What we've been watching for the last 3 years is just awful in my eyes. Declining players and a refusal to spend money. It's pathetic.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Sure. But they're not going to dump to a payroll of $15m, either. So let's live in some sort of world where they're going to "try to thread the needle" as has been reported. Yes, they're going to dump salary. But it's not going to be some full sale firesale some people want. They're also not going to add anyone significant through FA this offseason.

    So, let's live in the most realistic world; most of the team will be back. Some of them, probably wont. But the most realistic thing to expect is a roster similar to last year, with at least 1/2 "core" losses. They'll probably get some MLB talent in there somewhere; perhaps a failed former top prospect (Kieboom types). Bringing it back that way probably still allows the Cubs to compete for a bad division, as much as we don't want to accept that. 84 wins might win the NL central. Considering where the Cubs seem to be heading, I think they'll at least be within a reasonable possibility of pulling that off with some good luck. Much like they pulled this year.

    What would I do? Probably move some guys the Cubs won't move; Darvish, Happ, Contreras. But I also find that unlikely at this stage.

    So again, I expect the Cubs to float a $155-175m payroll. I expect most of these players back. I think we'll lose someone in the "core" (probably Bryant). I think we'll probably end up bringing Lester back on some cheap, 1 year deal. I think we'll play the same bullpen game as last year. I expect the Cubs to once again be in the 75-85 win territory, and with a potential chance of winning the Central, simply because the Central sucks and everyone in the Central appears to also be playing the "we're super poor" game.
    It's a shame what position Theo and Rickett's has put this team in since winning. Players declining each year, with no ability to move on from them, and/or spend money to improve the team.

    It makes me sick that their only goal this off season is to cut payroll substantially.

    Hey, it's their money, so they can do what they want. But as a fan, I don't have to like it.

    It's pretty much the norm for all owners. Profits first, and winning second.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Ok.....I can be on board with adding new ideas. But if they don't...I'm parting with Jed also.

    I'm done with living in the past. They have gotten worse each year that's passed by. They should have gotten better. They drafted guys that were MLB ready and they've gone in the wrong direction individually, and collectively. No development at all. It's time to move on.

    If they don't bring in some much different thinker, Jed will just continue this trend.

    I have much higher expectations than most on here. So it stands to reason, that I'm going to be less tolerant of declining baseball when I thought they would be a WS threat for several years. Especially with deep pockets, in a major market. What we've been watching for the last 3 years is just awful in my eyes. Declining players and a refusal to spend money. It's pathetic.
    Why are we "parting with Jed" too? Tell me, why, exactly. I'd love to hear it. Everyone seems to think they have an idea of what Jed Hoyer is like as GM of the Cubs or that he's some carbon copy of Epstein, but no one knows anything. You know who does? The Chicago Cubs organization, and they seem to enjoy the guy.

    And if Jed Hoyer continues "this trend" what's bad about that? Division titles are bad? Winning games is bad? Doing well in IFA is bad?

    You're being a very ungrateful fan if this isn't "enough" for you. Yeah, they only got "one" WS, but damnit, that's right up there with everyone not names the Astros lately. And they have a cheating scandal to boot. I agree, the ownership is annoying right now. But the FO team has done nothing but completely raise the bar for the organization, and put in the absolute best run in franchise history between 2015-2020. He have made the playoffs every year but one. Had a winning record every year. Won the division in 2016, 2017, and 2020. They made the playoffs in '15 and '18. They had three straight NLCS. A "decline" was always going to happen, what team hasn't declined after 5-6 years in current MLB? This isn't mid-90's Yankees economics and it's unfair to compare the Cubs to that. The Dodgers have proven that winning a WS is really ****ing hard. It took them a long time, a ton of money, and development, and they only have just gotten one, and it came in a 60 game season where people want to put an asterisk next to their name. This idea that it was "multiple WS or bust" is just asinine.

    "No development at all", huh? So what does that make guys like Marquez, Abbott, Davis? How about the changes guys like Davis and Nwogu, for example are showing in terms of their entire MLB profile? Davis was considered an incredibly raw talent, and they ripped his entire swing to the ground. He's the best prospect in the system. Baez didnt develop? Arrieta, Hendricks? No development on them, either? No development on guys like Jimenez who they traded? Same for Torress? What about all of the really interesting IFA guys? Contreras as a piss poor 3b. Yep, no development at all. It's funny, but most of the people who whine about the development have very little understanding of how interesting the Cubs minor league system is right now. It's about as good as it's been in the last 4 years. It doesn't help that without a MiLB system, people seem to not want to pay attention to the development. But this is a very interesting group of kids in the minors right now and the Cubs have a pretty interesting pipeline of pitchers, catchers, and guys up the middle right now.

    I'm tired of this thought, thaw. It's not been perfect and I won't claim it is. Yes, some things could have been better. But my god, reading your post you'd think the Cubs haven't been to the playoffs in 5 years. I see zero reason why we wouldn't want this to continue. And it's not "looking to the past". It's looking to the future. The Cubs have a lot of financial flexibility coming (even with lowered interest from the ownership). They have a really fun minor league system that's about to surprise some folks. I'd gladly welcome 5 more years like the last 5 years. And I'd have zero issue with Hoyer taking the VP spot and bringing in another GM from another org.

    We've seen how interesting that worked with the draft last year, adding McLeod to new ideas. Do the same when Epstein rolls, and we'll likely be set up just fine.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 11-13-2020 at 12:16 PM.

  5. #95
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    What I'm getting at is this; instead of people asking questions like "Why haven't the Cubs won multiple WS and matched my expectations?" maybe what they should be doing is starting with the question of "Are my expectations of winning multiple WS a valid expectation?"

    Because I think a lot of why people are whiney, and ungrateful to what the Cubs have accomplished is because they set the expectation bar far the **** too high, and can't seem to understand that. Yes, I would have liked the Cubs to win more. But to expect anything more than 5 out of 6 years in the playoffs, 3 NLCS', winning 90+ games on average (in the full seasons), and a WS, would be pretty much asinine, as almost no other team has had the success that the Cubs have had, and the only team to have definitive more has cheated.

    If people lowered the bar to a realistic standard of expectation (expectations are what you should do, or expectedly, not what you want or pie in the sky), I think they'd be far less whiney, and understand how good this run has truly been. What's out of whack is what Cubs fans expected. And it makes them complain and wish guys like McLeod, and Hoyer would just go when what they should be asking for is "More of this, please?". Yeah, if the Cubs get to a point where they're building consistent 75 win teams with ****** minor leagues? Yeah, dump 'em, man. But they're not.

  6. #96
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    2021 Talk (too early?)

    Iím all for aiming high and expecting success, but if the bar for ďsuccessĒ is having a dynasty then weíll always be disappointed. People can enjoy sports however they want, but I personally think that would be a miserable way to experience sports. Youíll be angry all the time and only content in a situation of extreme success.

    When the Cubs got good in 2015 I think a lot of people looked at this specific window as a 7 year window with Theo on a 10 year plan and a lot of these guys signed through 2021. Iím disappointed that the 7th year might not be competitive. Iím disappointed that they might need to intentionally step back for a year or two to set up the next window instead of seamlessly rolling from one window to the next one. I understand how we got here. Looking back it would be crazy to complain about what this FO has done. Iím good with giving this FO the first chance to do a quick reset and get back to an extended window of being a favorite in the division and one of the best teams in the league. If they canít get on a path to be very competitive again by 2023 and people want to go outside for a new leader, thatís fair enough (as long as ownership is willing to spend). If they start running $150 million annual payrolls moving forward then the rebuild will take a while.
    Last edited by CP_414; 11-13-2020 at 12:47 PM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Why are we "parting with Jed" too? Tell me, why, exactly. I'd love to hear it. Everyone seems to think they have an idea of what Jed Hoyer is like as GM of the Cubs or that he's some carbon copy of Epstein, but no one knows anything. You know who does? The Chicago Cubs organization, and they seem to enjoy the guy.

    And if Jed Hoyer continues "this trend" what's bad about that? Division titles are bad? Winning games is bad? Doing well in IFA is bad?

    You're being a very ungrateful fan if this isn't "enough" for you. Yeah, they only got "one" WS, but damnit, that's right up there with everyone not names the Astros lately. And they have a cheating scandal to boot. I agree, the ownership is annoying right now. But the FO team has done nothing but completely raise the bar for the organization, and put in the absolute best run in franchise history between 2015-2020. He have made the playoffs every year but one. Had a winning record every year. Won the division in 2016, 2017, and 2020. They made the playoffs in '15 and '18. They had three straight NLCS. A "decline" was always going to happen, what team hasn't declined after 5-6 years in current MLB? This isn't mid-90's Yankees economics and it's unfair to compare the Cubs to that. The Dodgers have proven that winning a WS is really ****ing hard. It took them a long time, a ton of money, and development, and they only have just gotten one, and it came in a 60 game season where people want to put an asterisk next to their name. This idea that it was "multiple WS or bust" is just asinine.

    "No development at all", huh? So what does that make guys like Marquez, Abbott, Davis? How about the changes guys like Davis and Nwogu, for example are showing in terms of their entire MLB profile? Davis was considered an incredibly raw talent, and they ripped his entire swing to the ground. He's the best prospect in the system. Baez didnt develop? Arrieta, Hendricks? No development on them, either? No development on guys like Jimenez who they traded? Same for Torress? What about all of the really interesting IFA guys? Contreras as a piss poor 3b. Yep, no development at all. It's funny, but most of the people who whine about the development have very little understanding of how interesting the Cubs minor league system is right now. It's about as good as it's been in the last 4 years. It doesn't help that without a MiLB system, people seem to not want to pay attention to the development. But this is a very interesting group of kids in the minors right now and the Cubs have a pretty interesting pipeline of pitchers, catchers, and guys up the middle right now.

    I'm tired of this thought, thaw. It's not been perfect and I won't claim it is. Yes, some things could have been better. But my god, reading your post you'd think the Cubs haven't been to the playoffs in 5 years. I see zero reason why we wouldn't want this to continue. And it's not "looking to the past". It's looking to the future. The Cubs have a lot of financial flexibility coming (even with lowered interest from the ownership). They have a really fun minor league system that's about to surprise some folks. I'd gladly welcome 5 more years like the last 5 years. And I'd have zero issue with Hoyer taking the VP spot and bringing in another GM from another org.

    We've seen how interesting that worked with the draft last year, adding McLeod to new ideas. Do the same when Epstein rolls, and we'll likely be set up just fine.
    A president is always going to hire a GM who is on the same page as him. Why would he ever hire a guy who doesn't have the same views? I'm confident that they are cut from the same cloth. Nothing will change under Jed.

    It's clear that coming in first in a horrible division is good enough for you. I'm sorry, 1908 but it's not good enough for me. To each his own. I will back off some other examples. But myself? I feel like they were going to be good with or without the Cubs in their lives

    You mention a hand full of minor leaguers who are still minor leaguers. Let's talk when they are all stars at the big league level. Or at least big contributors.

    I'm talking about 4 consecutive years of disappointment. At least for me it's disappointing. You are apparently fine with the last four years. And that's your choice. We don't fan the same way.

    I'm not as educated as you. Or well written, or well spoken, so I don't get my point across as well as you and a couple of other one here. You see, I've been a hard core Cubs fan since 1969. It wasn't until 1984 that I experienced the joy of winning. Then the sporadic appearances in the playoffs, only to be let down again. Then 2015 arrived! The talent I thought!!! We are in for a run where we dominate the NL. After 2017, for me, it's been just more of the same old crap with this franchise. Yes, my expectations are substantially higher than most, but that's me.

    The run is over. I'm ready for sweeping changes again.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    A president is always going to hire a GM who is on the same page as him. Why would he ever hire a guy who doesn't have the same views? I'm confident that they are cut from the same cloth. Nothing will change under Jed.

    It's clear that coming in first in a horrible division is good enough for you. I'm sorry, 1908 but it's not good enough for me. To each his own. I will back off some other examples. But myself? I feel like they were going to be good with or without the Cubs in their lives

    You mention a hand full of minor leaguers who are still minor leaguers. Let's talk when they are all stars at the big league level. Or at least big contributors.

    I'm talking about 4 consecutive years of disappointment. At least for me it's disappointing. You are apparently fine with the last four years. And that's your choice. We don't fan the same way.

    I'm not as educated as you. Or well written, or well spoken, so I don't get my point across as well as you and a couple of other one here. You see, I've been a hard core Cubs fan since 1969. It wasn't until 1984 that I experienced the joy of winning. Then the sporadic appearances in the playoffs, only to be let down again. Then 2015 arrived! The talent I thought!!! We are in for a run where we dominate the NL. After 2017, for me, it's been just more of the same old crap with this franchise. Yes, my expectations are substantially higher than most, but that's me.

    The run is over. I'm ready for sweeping changes again.
    You can just ask alot of Braves fans about how they feel about the 90s Braves..
    After years of being the West Division doormat.

    Theyll tell you it was great winning the division, going to the playoffs 14 of 15 years, and even being in 5 WS, but ive read and heard from alot of Braves fans about how disappointed and pissed they were about just winning 1 championship through all that.Imagine having their expectations year after year and being disappointed at the end.

    As a long time Cubs fan since the late 70s, this cubs team the last 6 years has been a blast to watch, 2016 will forever be in my mind..
    As far as this run being over, I'd at least wait and see what their moves are these next 2 offseasons before we go that far.
    I just dont think we're going to see playoff droughts from this team going forward like we did in the past where it was a few years between playoff appearances.





    Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

  9. #99
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    2021 Talk (too early?)

    The lesson here is that regardless of how great a team does if they donít become a dynasty a segment of the fan base will be bitter and angry. Those people are impossible to please and should not be taken seriously.

    There are 30 teams competing for the same thing. Many of those teams have similar or better resources. Many of the other teams with less resources have more opportunities to add talent in the draft and IFA than the Cubs do. Not even the Dodgers have been able to build a dynasty with all their resources, all their talent, all their smart people making decisions. I know bitter dodger fans who complained all through this postseason about how they were destined to lose again. I have no doubt there are bitter Braves fans who came out of the 90s complaining. I know bitter Yankee fans because they havenít won it al since 2009. A segment of any fan base is just going to be miserable regardless of what happens unless their team wins a title literally every season.
    Last edited by CP_414; 11-13-2020 at 06:17 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    segment of any fan base is just going to be miserable regardless of what happens unless their team wins a title literally every season.
    I think people just want a team you can be proud of. I loved the jimmy butler and d rose and Noah bulls even though they never won, because those guys left it all on every play, developed over the course of their career and their work ethic reflected the city. I loved the 05 and 06 bears too for similar reasons.

    I think we all loved the 2015 and 2016 Cubs, but then many guys became pricks or entitled and never put in the work to advance their game. Russell, Montero and La Stella
    were pricks, Schwarber has no work ethic and Bryant never improved. Rizzo is a fan favorite and rightfully so.

    I donít think anyone is miserable or unhappy with what the cubs have done or not winning every year. We just wanted to see the obvious gaps on the roster addressed, such as contact hitting. When you have multiple years in a window with the same problem not being addressed should fans not mention it?

    If the Bears had the best defense, special teams in a given 3 year stretch wouldnít you want the team to add a QB or just be happy that they are in the playoffs every year? Wouldnít you be kind of upset if they didnít even try to draft a QB in that situation?

    I think people loved this team but soured on them over the years due to lack of development. And also the FO didnít add more contact hitting and put too much faith in guys like Schwarber and Bryant. Fans foreshadowed what the FO couldnít.

    Anyways i had to respond because I think you think Iím one of those fans perpetually miserable and thatís just not the truth. We all love sports and have different visions for how to build a sustained contender.
    Last edited by PeanutPunch33; 11-19-2020 at 11:48 AM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    I think people just want a team you can be proud of. I loved the jimmy butler and d rose and Noah bulls even though they never won, because those guys left it all on every play, developed over the course of their career and their work ethic reflected the city. I loved the 05 and 06 bears too for similar reasons.

    I think we all loved the 2015 and 2016 Cubs, but then many guys became pricks or entitled and never put in the work to advance their game. Russell, Montero and La Stella
    were pricks, Schwarber has no work ethic and Bryant never improved. Rizzo is a fan favorite and rightfully so.


    I donít think anyone is miserable or unhappy with what the cubs have done or not winning every year. We just wanted to see the obvious gaps on the roster addressed, such as contact hitting. When you have multiple years in a window with the same problem not being addressed should fans not mention it?

    If the Bears had the best defense, special teams in a given 3 year stretch wouldnít you want the team to add a QB or just be happy that they are in the playoffs every year? Wouldnít you be kind of upset if they didnít even try to draft a QB in that situation?

    I think people loved this team but soured on them over the years due to lack of development. And also the FO didnít add more contact hitting and put too much faith in guys like Schwarber and Bryant. Fans foreshadowed what the FO couldnít.

    Anyways i had to respond because I think you think Iím one of those fans perpetually miserable and thatís just not the truth. We all love sports and have different visions for how to build a sustained contender.
    Russell doesn't belong with the other two names, Montero was a 30+ year old backup catcher who was quickly cut and I don't think anyone is thinking about at this point other than fondly because of his playoff heroics, and the stuff about Schwarber is complete and total conjecture that has no evidence to support it. It's just salty fans who are salty cause he didn't become a star. Same thing for TLS but I don't think anyone gave a **** about him. He was a bench bat his whole time here and mostly an afterthought. KB not improving from his 2016 MVP self shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I don't even think that's been the criticism, people have just *****ed about him for not being "clutch" and for the greivance. But any of those are stupid reasons to not love Kris Bryant. He's been awesome.

    Anyway, this is all lunacy. CP is 100% right. And to add on, anyone who isn't just grateful to this core for what they provided us the last 5 years won't be happy with any team.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 11-19-2020 at 12:16 PM.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    I think people just want a team you can be proud of. I loved the jimmy butler and d rose and Noah bulls even though they never won, because those guys left it all on every play, developed over the course of their career and their work ethic reflected the city. I loved the 05 and 06 bears too for similar reasons.

    I think we all loved the 2015 and 2016 Cubs, but then many guys became pricks or entitled and never put in the work to advance their game. Russell, Montero and La Stella
    were pricks, Schwarber has no work ethic and Bryant never improved. Rizzo is a fan favorite and rightfully so.

    I donít think anyone is miserable or unhappy with what the cubs have done or not winning every year. We just wanted to see the obvious gaps on the roster addressed, such as contact hitting. When you have multiple years in a window with the same problem not being addressed should fans not mention it?

    If the Bears had the best defense, special teams in a given 3 year stretch wouldnít you want the team to add a QB or just be happy that they are in the playoffs every year? Wouldnít you be kind of upset if they didnít even try to draft a QB in that situation?

    I think people loved this team but soured on them over the years due to lack of development. And also the FO didnít add more contact hitting and put too much faith in guys like Schwarber and Bryant. Fans foreshadowed what the FO couldnít.

    Anyways i had to respond because I think you think Iím one of those fans perpetually miserable and thatís just not the truth. We all love sports and have different visions for how to build a sustained contender.
    This is complete nonsense. Top to bottom nonsense.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    Russell doesn't belong with the other two names, Montero was a 30+ year old backup catcher who was quickly cut and I don't think anyone is thinking about at this point other than fondly because of his playoff heroics, and the stuff about Schwarber is complete and total conjecture that has no evidence to support it. It's just salty fans who are salty cause he didn't become a star. Same thing for TLS but I don't think anyone gave a **** about him. He was a bench bat his whole time here and mostly an afterthought. KB not improving from his 2016 MVP self shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I don't even think that's been the criticism, people have just *****ed about him for not being "clutch" and for the greivance. But any of those are stupid reasons to not love Kris Bryant. He's been awesome.

    Anyway, this is all lunacy. CP is 100% right. And to add on, anyone who isn't just grateful to this core for what they provided us the last 5 years won't be happy with any team.
    How is the Schwarber thing conjecture? Iíve only seen two players in a cubs uniform get benched in the last 10 years for loafing around in the field. Russell and Schwarber. The guy certainly has no talent, but now itís evident he has no desire or work ethic either. And Iíll always love Kb, Iím one of the few here that still wants him back and extended.

    Either way, the trash is no longer on the curb, not worried about Russell or Schwarber. To your last point Iím not ungrateful, but this team became a hell of a lot more unlikeable after the Russell fiasco and the slap on the wrist he got from Theo.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    This is complete nonsense. Top to bottom nonsense.
    Nonsense but you canít dispute any of it huh?

  15. #105
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    Maybe it wasnít due to work ethic but nobody improved from 2017 to 2020.

    Maybe we should stop saying theyíve been underachieving and start saying they overachieved one year in 2016?

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