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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    Maybe not but then again maybe Theo will try and convince Rickett that if he brings the core back again and let him try and get a couple of these FA pitchers to sign 1 yr deals that they would have a good shot at winning it all again ..
    If things aren't going well by the deadline, he can flip the pitchers and trade whomever from the core to get under the threshold
    I donít believe the budget will be set based on what gives the Cubs the best chance to win. I believe the budget will be set based on what gives ownership the best chances to make a profit in 2021 and recoup 2020 losses.

    I think the odds of risking going over the threshold at all are zero percent and would have been zero percent even without COVID. They didnít even want to be over 2 years in a row, let alone 3.

  2. #62
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    It seems like this organization is run the same way it has been for the last 100 years. They just finally lucked into one and now fans canít say ďcursed franchiseĒ or ď108 yearsĒ. Otherwise, itís the same ol same ol from this org.

    Once Zobrist, Fowler and Ross left as players this team made no effort to replace them. And these players didnít seem to learn anything from those vets that translates to the field or better ABs.

    Thanks for 2016 to this core. I hope they do well in their careers whether itís in Chicago or elsewhere. They will always be legends here. I think most people that occasionally
    criticize them and donít openly worship their feet also feel some sentiment and affection for all of these players.

    Itís time for the Cubs to address the elephant in the room and make a decision on Bryant. Extend him for something reasonable like 4 years 64 million or trade him. I personally dislike the idea of trading Contreras but he has the most value.

    Come back next year with modest extensions for Bryant and Rizzo. Non-tender Schwarber, trade Contreras and try to trade Baez. For 2 years of Contreras you should be able to get at least a top 100 pitching prospect that is close to MLB ready.

    Hope that your staff next year is your competitive advantage. Darvish/Hendricks/Marquez/Prospect X/Alzolay.

    Hope that Bryant/Rizzo/Happ/Heyward/nico/bote/ is good enough to be average. If teams like the marlins and the rays can piecemeal decent enough lineups why canít Theo?

    That would be the kind of mini-rebuild that I can be on board with, as they should be competitive at the same time. But if they decide to blow the whole thing up I can understand it.

    When does this Brennan Davis kid come up? Iíll need a reason to go to ballgames next year or even watch the games in itís entirety instead of just following it on the MLB app. It could be a few ugly years if they blow it up completely.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    It seems like this organization is run the same way it has been for the last 100 years. They just finally lucked into one and now fans canít say ďcursed franchiseĒ or ď108 yearsĒ. Otherwise, itís the same ol same ol from this org.

    Once Zobrist, Fowler and Ross left as players this team made no effort to replace them. And these players didnít seem to learn anything from those vets that translates to the field or better ABs.

    Thanks for 2016 to this core. I hope they do well in their careers whether itís in Chicago or elsewhere. They will always be legends here. I think most people that occasionally
    criticize them and donít openly worship their feet also feel some sentiment and affection for all of these players.

    Itís time for the Cubs to address the elephant in the room and make a decision on Bryant. Extend him for something reasonable like 4 years 64 million or trade him. I personally dislike the idea of trading Contreras but he has the most value.

    Come back next year with modest extensions for Bryant and Rizzo. Non-tender Schwarber, trade Contreras and try to trade Baez. For 2 years of Contreras you should be able to get at least a top 100 pitching prospect that is close to MLB ready.

    Hope that your staff next year is your competitive advantage. Darvish/Hendricks/Marquez/Prospect X/Alzolay.

    Hope that Bryant/Rizzo/Happ/Heyward/nico/bote/ is good enough to be average. If teams like the marlins and the rays can piecemeal decent enough lineups why canít Theo?

    That would be the kind of mini-rebuild that I can be on board with, as they should be competitive at the same time. But if they decide to blow the whole thing up I can understand it.

    When does this Brennan Davis kid come up? Iíll need a reason to go to ballgames next year or even watch the games in itís entirety instead of just following it on the MLB app. It could be a few ugly years if they blow it up completely.
    The Marlins lineup was marginally better than the Cubs. They didn't piecemeal a decent lineup. They lucked out that the season was 60 games long. The team had the 18th best offense, 18th among SP, 29th among RP. Over a full season they probably win 80 games if that.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOwolfOL View Post
    The Marlins lineup was marginally better than the Cubs. They didn't piecemeal a decent lineup. They lucked out that the season was 60 games long. The team had the 18th best offense, 18th among SP, 29th among RP. Over a full season they probably win 80 games if that.
    But their marginally better offense comes at what, a $100 million less on the books lol. Iím not saying piecemeal as in itís an elite offense or the strength of your team. Iím just saying, you can probably produce a lineup as good as the 2020 Cubs at a fraction of the cost.

    If the Cubs want to win a WS in the next 3 or 4 years itís going to have to be done with a completely different approach to the ďaccumulate hittersĒ mentality. Itís going to take an organizational change in approach to focus on SPing which is the strength of the team and which I hope they hone in. They already have two aces at the top. With one more, they donít even need a great lineup to be a really really good team. Like the Rays this year or the Indians of past seasons.

    And when Theo finally has some money to spend again, in 2022 or whatever, the team can be legitimate contenders and can bring in bats that way
    Last edited by PeanutPunch33; 10-03-2020 at 10:26 AM.

  5. #65
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    I also personally believe that if this team wasnít averse to doing just good baseball things like bunting a guy over, choking up on the bat, fighting off pitches to stay alive, theyíd be a much better offense currently than they are.

    When I see Javy or Schwarber up there tie game, 2 outs bases loaded and 0-2 count and they are trying to send one onto Waveland, and they strike out comically I ask myself every time if this dude has an incentive in his contract that says X amount of RBI or HR means additional $$$$.

    I mean how can any player have so little awareness or be so selfish that itís reflected in their approach at the plate. Itís just ugly to watch. The positional coaching on this team is terrible, some of the worst in the league.

    Go back and watch every AB this season and tell me if there was a single time Schwarber or Rizzo laid down a bunt against the shift to try and get an easy single. These guys can get on base if they want. But now that the job is done (WS win in 2016) they are more consumed by their status, their contracts, their stats.

    What Iím looking forward to more than anything in this rebuild is a group of kids hungry to win again before they become pacified veterans content with their incentive-laden contracts
    Last edited by PeanutPunch33; 10-03-2020 at 10:44 AM.

  6. #66
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    Theo has only one year left on his contract right? I know he's paid a ridiculous amount but I think I'd prefer moving on from him immediately and getting a nice voice in there to steer the ship towards the next time the Cubs will be a good team. Theo and co have been extremely disappointing since 2016 and have been behind the curve on player development for years now. Yes, they started making changes last offseason, but that speaks to exactly my point; they've fallen behind.

    Not just that, but his personnel decisions have really left us with no viable path forward. We can't trade players for good prospects to rebuild because they are all some combo of bad, expensive or on short deals. For example, who is trading anything of value for Kris Bryant right now? He's ash expensive due to arbitration, has one year left on his deal, and is coming off his worst year as a Cub. He'll get you something but it won't be a cornerstone piece to build around.

    For all of those saying we should run it back AGAIN with this group, you're overlooking one key thing, payroll. Someone calc'd it a few pages back and put us around $180 million but that leaves us with a rotation of... Darvish, Hendricks and nobody. Even if I buy the premise you'll get a bunch of really good pitchers to take cut rate, one year deals due to COVID, we'll easily be over what trust fund Tommy is willing to pay out this year. If we're going the one year route we'll certainly need to shed some hitter salary to make it work (Schwarber and either Baez or KB being the most likely, but again, we're getting little to nothing in return there). And then we just need to fill those holes anyway.

    I don't see a path to competitiveness in 2021, I honestly don't. Theo and co have ****ed us since 2016 and honestly should be out the door this offseason, despite all they've done for us. Maybe the only positive is we are really starting to wind down some of the bad contracts we have on the books and they aren't such a big hindrance anymore. Still though, the future is bleak and points towards a full rebuild. I get these things work in cycles but Theo and co have mismanaged this so poorly that we need to do a full rebuild as opposed to a Yankees style take a step back for a year and come back.

    It's not just about how they managed the major league roster either. Our player development has been poor for years. Obviously we all know about the starting pitcher woes but when is the last time we've developed a good bat in house? I guess Bote is the best we have and he's fine, sure, but it seems like the best teams are routinely finding and developing impact major league talent. They've also not been able to develop guys with real talent like Schwarber.

    I don't know man, it's a mess and they should be fired. I know trust fund Tommy is loathe to spend money unnecessarily these days though so I'm guessing we'll get another offseason of "run it back," "we made changes to the player development and coaching," etc. etc.

    Strip it down, I hate to say it, but it's the only path forward.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    I also personally believe that if this team wasnít averse to doing just good baseball things like bunting a guy over, choking up on the bat, fighting off pitches to stay alive, theyíd be a much better offense currently than they are.

    When I see Javy or Schwarber up there tie game, 2 outs bases loaded and 0-2 count and they are trying to send one onto Waveland, and they strike out comically I ask myself every time if this dude has an incentive in his contract that says X amount of RBI or HR means additional $$$$.

    I mean how can any player have so little awareness or be so selfish that itís reflected in their approach at the plate. Itís just ugly to watch. The positional coaching on this team is terrible, some of the worst in the league.

    Go back and watch every AB this season and tell me if there was a single time Schwarber or Rizzo laid down a bunt against the shift to try and get an easy single. These guys can get on base if they want. But now that the job is done (WS win in 2016) they are more consumed by their status, their contracts, their stats.
    I admit I am biased with Javy because we've seen him perform in clutch situations before. Yes his approach is unorthodox and will frustrate people when it doesn't work, but he generally performs, and that's what counts. For every annoying situation where he should have had more discipline or done a smarter baseball play, he rips a double on a bad pitch and wins us a game. Obviously 2020 was a little different but in general he's been a huge net positive for the club.

    Schwarber though? I haven't been disappointed in a player like I am him in so long. I was SO high on the kid but he's brutal to watch. Even when his numbers come out good at the end of the season, there's few hitters on the team I want up less than him in a big situation. I don't know what happened to him but he's just not there as a hitter.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealTI View Post
    I admit I am biased with Javy because we've seen him perform in clutch situations before. Yes his approach is unorthodox and will frustrate people when it doesn't work, but he generally performs, and that's what counts. For every annoying situation where he should have had more discipline or done a smarter baseball play, he rips a double on a bad pitch and wins us a game. Obviously 2020 was a little different but in general he's been a huge net positive for the club.

    Schwarber though? I haven't been disappointed in a player like I am him in so long. I was SO high on the kid but he's brutal to watch. Even when his numbers come out good at the end of the season, there's few hitters on the team I want up less than him in a big situation. I don't know what happened to him but he's just not there as a hitter.
    With Javy it seems like he tries something different every time. Bunted 3-2 count in game 7 with a guy on 3rd, but then often 0-2 swinging out of his shoes. He just needs to remain patient and do his role instead of always trying to make the big play.

    Itís frustrating with him because there are very few youíd rather have with a 2-0 or 3-1 count. Just those first two pitches that he canít take or work the plate make such a difference for who he is as a hitter.
    Last edited by PeanutPunch33; 10-03-2020 at 10:57 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Truthfully the Cubs best chance is to bring everyone back at this juncture. They'll get little this offseason, they may recoup some value, the division sucks, and maybe you can back into the playoffs. The Marlins suck and they won a series. The Astros were no good and did as well. So, just get in.

    I know its not exciting or what people want today (that said they wanted to trade everyone all the time, so what "everyone wants" has truly never been a good idea). But its probably the only realistic option.

    Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk
    Winning a playoff series against crap does nothing to raise my excitement meter. Call me spoiled but I would rather hit the rebuild button if thats the ceiling...

  10. #70
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    The Indians have churned out Kluber, Carrasco, Baeur, Clevinger, Plesac, Bieber, Mckenzie, with Quantrill who they will probably turn into a stud too. Coaching goes such a long way.

    When Theo took over and the Cubs got all these promising hitters I thought theyíd supplement great talent with great coaching and development and have depth coming in the pipeline. Now the Cubs have nothing.

    2016 makes this situation completely worth it though lol but yeah, the next 3-4 seasons will suck. The true reset is when Heyward comes off the books.
    Last edited by PeanutPunch33; 10-03-2020 at 11:25 AM.

  11. #71
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    2021 Talk (too early?)

    A lot of you guys eager to rebuild should check out some of the teams that have tried to do full rebuilds recently.

    The Cubs hit on basically every move in their rebuild and they and the Astros were ahead of the game in terms of tanking. With the way prospect value has changed in the last decade and more teams are actively trying to lose, a tank/rebuild could take 5+ years today with no guarantee of success.

    A rebuild should be one of the options considered, but it would suck immensely.
    Last edited by CP_414; 10-03-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #72
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    2021 Talk (too early?)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    The Indians have churned out Kluber, Carrasco, Baeur, Clevinger, Plesac, Bieber, Mckenzie, with Quantrill who they will probably turn into a stud too. Coaching goes such a long way.

    When Theo took over and the Cubs got all these promising hitters I thought theyíd supplement great talent with great coaching and development and have depth coming in the pipeline. Now the Cubs have nothing.

    2016 makes this situation completely worth it though lol but yeah, the next 3-4 seasons will suck. The true reset is when Heyward comes off the books.
    And they got nothing for Kluber, nothing for Bauer, a mediocre return on Clevinger. Quantrill is still far from a stud and McKenzie has a ways to go to establish himself. Carrasco is 34 next year.

    If you were an Indians fan youíd be complaining about how Bieber sucked in the playoffs, they wasted all those pitchers, and now they have to trade Lindor for pennies on the dollar because they wonít sign him, and they also blew a 3-1 lead in 2016. The Twins have passed them and the Sox are just at the start of their window while the Royals and Tigers are further along in their rebuilds.
    Last edited by CP_414; 10-03-2020 at 12:08 PM.

  13. #73
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    Iíd love to see the Cubs vulture a FO or developmental hire from one of the teams that knows what theyíre doing from a pitching standpoint. Dodgers, Indians, Rays. Create a position, make it look like a promotion, whatever it takes.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    And they got nothing for Kluber, nothing for Bauer, a mediocre return on Clevinger. Quantrill is still far from a stud and McKenzie has a ways to go to establish himself. Carrasco is 34 next year.

    If you were an Indians fan youíd be complaining about how Bieber sucked in the playoffs, they wasted all those pitchers, and now they have to trade Lindor for pennies on the dollar because they wonít sign him, and they also blew a 3-1 lead in 2016. The Twins have passed them and the Sox are just at the start of their window while the Royals and Tigers are further along in their rebuilds.
    Whatís your point? I never said I would rather be an Indians fan and made it quite clear that 2016 makes this current circus show worth it. And anyway thatís the definition of hindsight. They could have traded guys when their value was at its peak but they failed like Theo in that regard. The point is they have coaching continuity and development that the Cubs could only dream of.

    Funny how teams with teams with limited resources do so much with so little yet the Cubs organization does little with so much. What the Indians and Rays have done is true GM work.
    Last edited by PeanutPunch33; 10-03-2020 at 04:44 PM.

  15. #75
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    2021 Talk (too early?)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    Whatís your point? I never said I would rather be an Indians fan and made it quite clear that 2016 makes this current circus show worth it. And anyway thatís the definition of hindsight. They could have traded guys when their value was at its peak but they failed like Theo in that regard. The point is they have coaching continuity and development that the Cubs could only dream of.

    Funny how teams with teams with limited resources do so much with so little yet the Cubs organization does little with so much. What the Indians and Rays have done is true GM work.
    Point is that there isnít a single team that you wouldnít be complaining about if you were in their fanbase. You can talk about how great the Indians are at producing pitchers from the outside, but youíd be more miserable as an Indians fan than you are as a cubs fan. You pine for the Indians coaching but theyíve achieved less than the cubs have and are in no better a position moving forward.

    We all want to be the Dodgers, but if the Cubs were the Dodgers a large portion of the people here would call them chokers and complain about how they are great in the season but canít win in October. People would complain about how theyíve prospect hoarded and they havenít gone all in to win the WS like the Cubs did with Chapman.
    Last edited by CP_414; 10-03-2020 at 05:27 PM.

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