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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    Great question. I answer Yes.

    I also ask the question. If we have to surround you with great talent at wr, rb, and o line then why do I need to pay you $35 mil a year? Let's use Dallas as an example. I'd take Dalton at $3mil all day over Dak at $31 mil. If I can get 75% of the production (counting stats) at 10% of the cost that's a no brainier. Then draft a qb next year while resigning Dalton to say maybe $10 mil a year. if he succeeds
    Wentz didnít need to be surrounded by great talent last year to make the playoffs.

    I also agree about dalton. I think he can go in there and do nearly as good as dak for a fraction of the cost.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Yes. But you canít use that to rationalize everything. Thatís why I always ask whatís the handicap? I have zero interest on what theoretically Wentz stats would be like if he had better players.
    There is a big gap between Mahomes and Wentz. Of course if we use our imagination and make them switch teams that gap would be less but this sort of thinking is an exercise in futility.
    In 2019, I can say with certainty, if Wentz and Mahomes switched teams that Wentz would have had the better stats. In fairness, he basically did anyways.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    Great question. I answer Yes.

    I also ask the question. If we have to surround you with great talent at wr, rb, and o line then why do I need to pay you $35 mil a year? Let's use Dallas as an example. I'd take Dalton at $3mil all day over Dak at $31 mil. If I can get 75% of the production (counting stats) at 10% of the cost that's a no brainier. Then draft a qb next year while resigning Dalton to say maybe $10 mil a year. if he succeeds

    Wentz doesn't need surrounded by all pros. He needs consistency in cast, that's all I ask.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    with the insane dollars QBs are making with no real end in sight would teams be better off letting someone go even in their prime if they arent a top 5 QB and just drafting a QB and building the team?

    Example.... The top 4 QBs right now would be Wilson/Mahomes/Jackson/watson with a big drop off in either skill or age after this... These guys making top dollar is now worth it because nomatter who they have they can lead a team to a title possibly but after that it just doesnt make sense to give top dollar to guys just because of the notion its a QB driven league and that equals success....


    So in theory lets use Dak and Wentz as an example.... If you realize they are top 10 QBs but not top 5 QBs would it be smarter to then trade said QB in their prime while saving the 33 mill a season it would likely cost to keep them and just put talent with that money and the picks you get back into the team? You could set up a blue print before hand and even draft a QB in the 2nd or 4th round 2 years before you would need to give out a massive QB contract and have said young backup primed and ready to fill in.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Wentz doesn't need surrounded by all pros. He needs consistency in cast, that's all I ask.
    Well, Eagles receivers are consistently in a cast.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Ive always been interested to see if a team would ever try to build a team around rookie qb after rookie qb. No team would every do it because it's risky, but Buffalo would be a really good team to try it. Maybe you have to franchise a guy once and awhile, but building a really, really talented team around a qb and just replacing the qb could work, especially if you have a strong defense and solid running game.
    Yup, i'd be really interested to see how well this would turn out.

    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    To be fair, especially on the lions front, the issue has mostly been drafting though to be honest. It's not like they've had to let really talented players walk due to Stafford's contract. They just haven't had a talented team. And usually you aren't building a great team through FA, even if you're not spending big on a qb. You pretty much need to build through the draft and supplement with FA. Not trying to **** on lions fans, but the complete lack of impact players despite generally picking fairly high.
    Your absolutely right that the drafting has been terrible in recent history for the Lions. However, Stafford being resigned in 2013 caused them to not resign Suh the following year. Now, you can make the argument that Suh's contract wasn't worth it but I'd be interested to see the shape of the organization if they put their money towards the defense. Suh was dominate and still a very productive DT. Had they gone this approach they could have selected the following QBs as Stafford's replacement: Bridgewater, Carr, or Garoppolo.

    Of course, hindsight is 20/20

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
    Wentz didnít need to be surrounded by great talent last year to make the playoffs.

    I also agree about dalton. I think he can go in there and do nearly as good as dak for a fraction of the cost.
    My answer wasn't referring to Wentz and the Eagles. I should've been more clear.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Wentz doesn't need surrounded by all pros. He needs consistency in cast, that's all I ask.
    I think so many people don't realize the difference between "average" surrounding casts and below average. Like, only a few teams have elite weapons or elite OL, but there's a huge step between an average, imperfect offense and an offense featuring guys that aren't even NFL caliber players. Wentz's WRs at times certainly bordering on non-NFL caliber.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    My answer wasn't referring to Wentz and the Eagles. I should've been more clear.
    Oh my bad. The convo was kinda going that direction with dak and wentz so I guess I just assumed. But I agree with your comments about QBs in general

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I think so many people don't realize the difference between "average" surrounding casts and below average. Like, only a few teams have elite weapons or elite OL, but there's a huge step between an average, imperfect offense and an offense featuring guys that aren't even NFL caliber players. Wentz's WRs at times certainly bordering on non-NFL caliber.
    Doesn't matter. He should have the same stats throwing to stadium janitors.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Doesn't matter. He should have the same stats throwing to stadium janitors.
    No one thinks that all. But you donít get a blank cheque either. You donít appreciate that itís a slippery slope.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    No one thinks that all. But you donít get a blank cheque either. You donít appreciate that itís a slippery slope.
    I agree with both sides. There is no perfect formula to introduce a handicap like youíre saying to quantify how a QB with lesser surrounding talent and lesser counting stats outperformed a QB with greater surrounding talent and greater counting stats.

    I guess if you individually calculate the surrounding talent plus the difficulty of the opponents thatd at least be a good start.

    Like hypothetically, say Daks overall talent resulted in a +10 with 0 being average and Wentz was -2; maybe you subtract 10% from Daks numbers and add 2% to Wentz?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    I agree with both sides. There is no perfect formula to introduce a handicap like youíre saying to quantify how a QB with lesser surrounding talent and lesser counting stats outperformed a QB with greater surrounding talent and greater counting stats.

    I guess if you individually calculate the surrounding talent plus the difficulty of the opponents thatd at least be a good start.

    Like hypothetically, say Daks overall talent resulted in a +10 with 0 being average and Wentz was -2; maybe you subtract 10% from Daks numbers and add 2% to Wentz?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I appreciate your fair post. Iím not sure if itís possible to have an accurate handicap as surrounding talent is so subjective.
    I tend to lean on what actually happened then play the what could of happened if.....
    I also believe that a QB can have inferior stats to another and actually be better but there is a limit.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    I appreciate your fair post. Iím not sure if itís possible to have an accurate handicap as surrounding talent is so subjective.
    I tend to lean on what actually happened then play the what could of happened if.....
    I also believe that a QB can have inferior stats to another and actually be better but there is a limit.
    I don't disagree as much as you seem to think I do. I feel, personally, that when the Dak vs Wentz stuff is argued that context is usually thrown right out the door. It matters. How much depends on each persons view I guess.

    All that aside, Wentz needs to get better or the Eagles are in trouble.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    I appreciate your fair post. Iím not sure if itís possible to have an accurate handicap as surrounding talent is so subjective.
    I tend to lean on what actually happened then play the what could of happened if.....
    I also believe that a QB can have inferior stats to another and actually be better but there is a limit.
    I agree but there in lies the issue on both sides.

    So if you donít think Wentz, with inferior surrounding and stats, was better than Dak last year, what is your limit as to why?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

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