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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    I don't disagree as much as you seem to think I do. I feel, personally, that when the Dak vs Wentz stuff is argued that context is usually thrown right out the door. It matters. How much depends on each persons view I guess.

    All that aside, Wentz needs to get better or the Eagles are in trouble.
    Agreed too because you have to look at everything. This isnít a vacuum.

    Dak throwing to Cooper, Gallup, with a still solid line and Zeke vs Wentz throwing to Ertz, Goedert, a solid line and Rookie Sanders.

    The other factor is while Ertz and Goedert are obviously great, they arenít stretching the field the way Cooper and Gallup did. Basically Wentz had like 10-12ish yards to play with vs Dak having 20+ each time.

    Iím curious to look further into what I suggested.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    I agree but there in lies the issue on both sides.

    So if you donít think Wentz, with inferior surrounding and stats, was better than Dak last year, what is your limit as to why?


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    I donít know the exact balance. I will say though that a thousand more yards with fewer turnovers plus all the other stats is to much for Wentz to overcome. In this case itís not context but rather rationalizing.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppapuh86 View Post
    My issue with qb contracts is a new qb was resetting the market every year. And those qbs weren't even top 5 int he NFL. I get it from a business standpoint of having a "franchise qb" behind center to put butts in the seats but from a trying to contend for a Super bowl, I think it's a terrible decision. I believe there was a notion among GMs that they need to pay their qb now before the price tag increases with the salary cap continually increasing each year. If you parlay that notion with waiting to logn to extend or being int he 5th year option already then the qb has all the leverage with the team having none. A la the Skins with Cousins and now Dallas with Dak.
    R. Wilson
    P. Mahomes
    A. Rodgers
    Those are the 3 franchise qbs on huge contracts I think are worth it.
    Wentz
    Goff
    Ryan
    Brees
    Jimmy G
    Cousins
    Stafford
    Terrible contracts for trying to win a Super Bowl but good from a business stand point in filling the seats (except this year)

    If I'm a GM and am unsure if my qb is a franchise qb then I look to trade him in their 4th year (if taken in 1st round) If not you run the likely risk of overpaying for the same production if not, less.

    Obviously it's tougher than just saying trade them in their 4th year. The head coach, GM and owner all have to e on the same page. With the frequent turnover of head coaches within the first 3-5 yr window, being able to have a "franchise qb" kinda buys them a little more time.
    This is one reason I was in favor of the Cowboys placing the other franchise tag that allows him to test the market. Instead of just paying the next guy more than the last guy I wanted the actual market to speak for itself. Let him go out and negotiate a deal. If the market is $40M a season then pay him that. I donít think the market was that high for Dak during the off season.


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  4. #64
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    This is a question for a Eagles fans. With everything you know about Carson Wentz, are you ok with him being the QB for the next 3 seasons after this season? Realistically with his contract thatís how long he will be a member of the Eagles. The dead money would really be too much to move him before then.


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    This is a question for a Eagles fans. With everything you know about Carson Wentz, are you ok with him being the QB for the next 3 seasons after this season? Realistically with his contract thatís how long he will be a member of the Eagles. The dead money would really be too much to move him before then.


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    Without question.

    With that said, I want a traditional OC.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    This is a question for a Eagles fans. With everything you know about Carson Wentz, are you ok with him being the QB for the next 3 seasons after this season? Realistically with his contract thatís how long he will be a member of the Eagles. The dead money would really be too much to move him before then.
    Ask me again in a few weeks.

    As for Wentz's contract, it could be feasible to trade him sooner than in 3 years, but the compensation would have to be really worth it to make up for the dead cap hit.

    But with a shrinking cap it's very unlikely Wentz won't be an Eagle in 2021. He might even get his 2021 salary restructured into more pro-rated guarantees depending on how this season goes. Such a move would also alleviate any trust issues between him and the front office, if they exist.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    No one thinks that all. But you donít get a blank cheque either. You donít appreciate that itís a slippery slope.
    Some people don't realize how bad some rosters really are. I know you're not a Cam fan, so you probably won't care, but at times he had an offense featuring 2-3 linemen and 2-3 WRs seeing starter reps who had no business on an NFL roster, much less starting on one. At one point he was being protected by a converted DT at RT, a train wreck Byron Bell at LT who has never had another starting gig, a bust div 2 RG who has never started since leaving Carolina; his WRs were the ghost of Jericho Cotchery, an UDFA who hasn't had a start outside of Carolina, and Kelvin Benjamin, who last half a season after leaving Carolina. He also lost every WR from the previous season who had a catch from him and his franchise LT and LG retired. He was nearly killed every game and somehow managed to get the team to ~.500 for a playoff appearance, yet people only wanted to moan about his statzzzz.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigers.6 View Post
    Yup, i'd be really interested to see how well this would turn out.



    Your absolutely right that the drafting has been terrible in recent history for the Lions. However, Stafford being resigned in 2013 caused them to not resign Suh the following year. Now, you can make the argument that Suh's contract wasn't worth it but I'd be interested to see the shape of the organization if they put their money towards the defense. Suh was dominate and still a very productive DT. Had they gone this approach they could have selected the following QBs as Stafford's replacement: Bridgewater, Carr, or Garoppolo.

    Of course, hindsight is 20/20
    Even on the cheap though, how much better is Detroit with say suh and one of those guys? There's a real argument that they are worse.

    To me, the bear method is to find a great qb. But if you're a team like say current Buffalo or current San Fran, who's already loaded on defense and could have a run game. Pitt would make sense. NE seems to be kind of trying it, although they went cheaper vet as opposed to rookie. Maybe you can convince Washington to do that. But if I'm say the NYJ, Carolina, Detroit, NYG or those types of teams with somewhat underwhelming rosters all around, I'm pushing hard into the find a qb and pay him camp.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    Some people don't realize how bad some rosters really are. I know you're not a Cam fan, so you probably won't care, but at times he had an offense featuring 2-3 linemen and 2-3 WRs seeing starter reps who had no business on an NFL roster, much less starting on one. At one point he was being protected by a converted DT at RT, a train wreck Byron Bell at LT who has never had another starting gig, a bust div 2 RG who has never started since leaving Carolina; his WRs were the ghost of Jericho Cotchery, an UDFA who hasn't had a start outside of Carolina, and Kelvin Benjamin, who last half a season after leaving Carolina. He also lost every WR from the previous season who had a catch from him and his franchise LT and LG retired. He was nearly killed every game and somehow managed to get the team to ~.500 for a playoff appearance, yet people only wanted to moan about his statzzzz.
    You make a valid point. No one is suggesting that every QBs starting point is the same.
    A QB with inferior stats can be better then a QB with better stats.
    Having said that though there are limits to this.
    Very quickly context turns into rationalizing.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Ask me again in a few weeks.

    As for Wentz's contract, it could be feasible to trade him sooner than in 3 years, but the compensation would have to be really worth it to make up for the dead cap hit.

    But with a shrinking cap it's very unlikely Wentz won't be an Eagle in 2021. He might even get his 2021 salary restructured into more pro-rated guarantees depending on how this season goes. Such a move would also alleviate any trust issues between him and the front office, if they exist.
    Not really. These are the dead cap numbers he would generate this year, and the next 3 years.

    2020 = $77.8M in dead cap
    2021 = $59.2M in dead cap
    2022 = $24.5M in dead cap
    2023 = $15.2M in dead cap
    2024 = $6M in dead cap

    So they could potentially trade or cut Wentz in 2023 but more than $15M in dead cap is still a lot for just 1 player. In 2024 they could easily get out of the contract if they wanted. Until then though itís likely he isnít going anywhere.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Not really. These are the dead cap numbers he would generate this year, and the next 3 years.

    2020 = $77.8M in dead cap
    2021 = $59.2M in dead cap
    2022 = $24.5M in dead cap
    2023 = $15.2M in dead cap
    2024 = $6M in dead cap

    So they could potentially trade or cut Wentz in 2023 but more than $15M in dead cap is still a lot for just 1 player. In 2024 they could easily get out of the contract if they wanted. Until then though itís likely he isnít going anywhere.
    The dead cap of a trade in 2021 is $34M because the salary is guaranteed that year and would be paid by the new team.

    The number for 2022 is correct, but there would also be cap savings of $7M.

    So it comes down to how many draft picks acquired in a trade is cap space worth. A 1st and 2nd round pick perhaps?

    Note that I'm not advocating for such a trade; I'm only saying that it can't be ruled out completely.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    The dead cap of a trade in 2021 is $34M because the salary is guaranteed that year and would be paid by the new team.

    The number for 2022 is correct, but there would also be cap savings of $7M.

    So it comes down to how many draft picks acquired in a trade is cap space worth. A 1st and 2nd round pick perhaps?

    Note that I'm not advocating for such a trade; I'm only saying that it can't be ruled out completely.
    I think the Eagles could easily get a 1st and 2nd for Wentz.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    I think the Eagles could easily get a 1st and 2nd for Wentz.


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    Send him to Jacksonville where Foles went to die. Lol

  14. #74
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    I was mostly just using Dak/Wentz as examples because it fits best with the overall topic... both arent top 5 QBs but arent outside of the top 10 while likely making top QB money... I could also use rodgers as an excuse that tbh the packers should have traded him or look to trade him as soon as next season if we fall short again and he has a fantastic season... i feel like the objective shouldnt be to win THIS season every season but to give yourself a window of 10 seasons or so where you are a legit playoff contender with talent on all sides of the ball and to do that you cant have a QB making 35 million Ö if your QB is other worldly which is top 5 then i have 0 issues but if you have a wentz or a Dak and you realize their big pay day is coming and they have flaws then a year or 2 before said pay day take a risk or 2 in the draft of drafting a replacement so you have the option of then trading those QBs for multiple picks all while being able to put that 35 mill in other areas of the team.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Should a player, surrounded by better players, produce better counting stats? yes or no?
    Pederson has proven he can coach better than anything Dak endured under the most conservative and risk averse coach in NFL history - Garrett. Cowboys O-line was great from 2014-2016. Not so much from 2017 on due to injuries, illness and the physical breaking down of Tyron Smith. There is perception persistence that is hard to break e.g. The Cowboys have a great O-line. They are absolutely middle of the road the last few years up front.

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