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View Poll Results: Who is the G.O.A.T at their absolute peak?

Voters
8. You may not vote on this poll
  • James Harden

    2 25.00%
  • Tracy McGrady

    0 0%
  • Reggie Miller

    0 0%
  • Clyde Drexler

    1 12.50%
  • Dr. J

    0 0%
  • Karl Malone

    0 0%
  • Charles Barkley

    4 50.00%
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo

    1 12.50%
  • Elgin Baylor

    0 0%
  • Rick Barry

    0 0%
  • Isiah Thomas

    0 0%
  • Scottie Pippen

    0 0%
  • John Havlicek

    0 0%
  • Allen Iverson

    0 0%
  • Steve Nash

    0 0%
  • John Stockton

    0 0%
  • Russell Westbrook

    0 0%
  • Walt Frazier

    0 0%
  • Patrick Ewing

    0 0%
  • Willis Reed

    0 0%
  • Bob McAdoo

    0 0%
  • Anthony Davis

    0 0%
  • Kevin McHale

    0 0%
  • Wes Unseld

    0 0%
  • Dominique Wilkins

    0 0%
  • Grant Hill

    0 0%
  • George Gervin

    0 0%
  • Bob Cousy

    0 0%
  • George Mikan

    0 0%
  • Nate "Tiny" Archibald

    0 0%
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Results 31 to 45 of 83
  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Again, though, Nash is taking far, far, far fewer shots. And the degree of difficulty isn't the same. If Harden was the No. 2 or No. 3 scorer on the team and took only 60-80% as many FGA, his shooting percentages would skyrocket. (Look at his last year in OKC when he shot 49% from the floor and 39% from the 3-point line.)

    Harden's also had terrible offensive coaches prior to D'Antoni joining Houston. And in the last four years with D'Antoni they've been 2nd, 1st, 2nd and 6th. So, yeah, I think Harden is a pretty ****ing elite playmaker who you can build an incredible offense around. (And it's worth nothing the two years the Rockets were second, they were second to the otherworldly Warriors.)

    No. With the same coach, Harden's offenses were like 95% as good within their respective era as Nash's, even taking the volume of 3-pointers in this era into account. Also, I love that your entire argument in an individual debate is based around a team statistic, because you know Nash's individual numbers, talent and overall skills won't hold a candle to Harden.
    My argument is based around the team statistic because Nash makes that team statistic so good. Harden gets numbers for himself? Yay for him. I want to the guy who lifts every bodies numbers, and Nash does that better.

    Nashís Oncourt and On/Off numbers in Phoenix were +8.0 and +10.8 (and +10.7/+12.5 from 05-08).
    Hardenís numbers in Houston (excluding his 1st seasons because they were bad) are +6.1 and +6.5.

    I recommend you read this:

    https://backpicks.com/2018/02/22/bac...19-steve-nash/


    Nashís offensive impact is enormous. I donít care if Nash doesnít score 30 if the team has the highest scoring offense in the league as a result of Nash.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Superior basketball intellect, superior playoff performer, greater intangibles and impact on team wins.
    No he wasnít a superior playoff performer. Superior to his own stats but nothing special. Peak Drob poops all over peak Walton and itís not close. And there are zero numbers that say otherwise. Admiral literally has 10 playoffs better than Bills best and the regular season dumps so bad on Bill Walton itís not even worth mentioning. Dumbest thing Iíve ever seen. Bill Walton over Giannis is the same kind of joke. There is zero evidence. Like Kobe has way more argument of Lebron than this silly ish.
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 09-15-2020 at 02:56 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Pippen could dominate a game without scoring, lets not underrate the importance of that kind of talent back in the 90's, prolly doesn't translate as well in a defenseless league but he would still be a great addition to any star.
    No he couldnít


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    My argument is based around the team statistic because Nash makes that team statistic so good. Harden gets numbers for himself? Yay for him. I want to the guy who lifts every bodies numbers, and Nash does that better.

    Nashís Oncourt and On/Off numbers in Phoenix were +8.0 and +10.8 (and +10.7/+12.5 from 05-08).
    Hardenís numbers in Houston (excluding his 1st seasons because they were bad) are +6.1 and +6.5.

    I recommend you read this:

    https://backpicks.com/2018/02/22/bac...19-steve-nash/


    Nashís offensive impact is enormous. I donít care if Nash doesnít score 30 if the team has the highest scoring offense in the league as a result of Nash.
    Oh, cool, a single source that's more than two years old, and another team-based statistic. That'll change my opinion!

    Look, I'm not saying Nash isn't underrated or wasn't a phenomenal player. If I had to rank my personal top 30 all-time players, Nash is on that list. He was a phenomenal talent and one of the greatest (if not the greatest) playmakers of all-time, and I was a huge fan of his at his peak in Phoenix.

    But you're comparing apples and oranges here between a pass-first point guard and an all-around offensive juggernaut. Harden has proven that you can surround him with inferior talent, and he can get you 50 wins easily and a 4 seed. Nash never had to carry the offensive load Harden did, and he wasn't capable of the sheer offensive production of Harden.

    If you get one of these guys for one game and you pick Nash, you're banking on other guys to hit shots. And we have no clue who these hypothetical players are. What if they're bad 3-point shooters? What if they're bad pick and roll players? It's like I said in my previous post, in this exercise, you're not answering "which guy had the best peak." You're answering "which guy would you pick at his peak to win you a single game."

    Consider that, at his peak, Nash's USG% hovered around 22%. Harden's is more like 35%. So you're banking on four random guys to make up that 13% and be more productive with it than Harden. Even factoring in Harden's higher turnover rate in that USG%, I'm not buying that the other four random guys on this team are going to be anywhere near as efficient or productive as Harden with those possessions.


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    At his peak Karl Malone was playing 40 minutes and giving you an efficient 28/10/4 with a mid-range game and all-nba 1st team defense.
    He kind of reminds me of Giannis: A one-man wrecking machine who needs a closer next to him. Unfortunately, Stockton wasn't it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    That's the biggest flaw with the whole concept of this idea, though. You've given posters no context for the team around them. You're saying "You get this one player for one game at his peak, regardless of the talent and teammates around him." So I can't assume I have another elite scorer on this team who's going to carry the load if Pippen isn't putting up 25-30 points every night. Under these circumstances, I pretty much have to assume that every other player on this hypothetical, unknown roster is a worse scorer than the peak player I'm picking.
    Sure you can. You have the entire history of the nba as the player pool. Just think of it like an all-time redraft. The idea that each pick you make is going to be a "worse scorer" doesn't make sense.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    He kind of reminds me of Giannis: A one-man wrecking machine who needs a closer next to him. Unfortunately, Stockton wasn't it.
    I guess I just haven't written off Giannis yet. Like why does he already have to be winning rings at 25? Jordan didn't do it until he was 27. LeBron is another example of a late bloomer.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I have literally no idea who youíre talking about here. When did anyone mention lob threats and who is DJ?
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Oh, cool, a single source that's more than two years old, and another team-based statistic. That'll change my opinion!
    These two posts had me.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Oh, cool, a single source that's more than two years old, and another team-based statistic. That'll change my opinion!

    Look, I'm not saying Nash isn't underrated or wasn't a phenomenal player. If I had to rank my personal top 30 all-time players, Nash is on that list. He was a phenomenal talent and one of the greatest (if not the greatest) playmakers of all-time, and I was a huge fan of his at his peak in Phoenix.

    But you're comparing apples and oranges here between a pass-first point guard and an all-around offensive juggernaut. Harden has proven that you can surround him with inferior talent, and he can get you 50 wins easily and a 4 seed. Nash never had to carry the offensive load Harden did, and he wasn't capable of the sheer offensive production of Harden.

    If you get one of these guys for one game and you pick Nash, you're banking on other guys to hit shots. And we have no clue who these hypothetical players are. What if they're bad 3-point shooters? What if they're bad pick and roll players? It's like I said in my previous post, in this exercise, you're not answering "which guy had the best peak." You're answering "which guy would you pick at his peak to win you a single game."

    Consider that, at his peak, Nash's USG% hovered around 22%. Harden's is more like 35%. So you're banking on four random guys to make up that 13% and be more productive with it than Harden. Even factoring in Harden's higher turnover rate in that USG%, I'm not buying that the other four random guys on this team are going to be anywhere near as efficient or productive as Harden with those possessions.
    First Bolded: What does it being 2 years old have to do with anything? It's about Steve Nash. He retired in 2014. You think his numbers might have changed the last 2 years lol?

    Second Bolded: All-Time lists are comparing Apples to Oranges though, otherwise how would you ever have C's and PGs on the same list?

    Third Bolded: First, I don't think HAS to carry that load. That's his play style, to be incredibly ball dominant. He had CP3 and Eric Gordon and several good role players offensively, he did not need to score 30-35 PPG, he chose to. Second, Nash didn't carry the same scoring load Harden did, but he definitely carried near the offensive production load. Consider:

    Fourth Bolded: Usage isn't the best statistics for measuring their offensive role. Usage only measures the end result of a play. Offensive Load and Box Creation are better measures of someone's offensive load. Check out this video:

    https://youtu.be/r0934lGZ4dw

    If you go to the 6:29 mark of the video you'll see that once you combine their scoring load and their creation load, Nash's offensive load is on the same level of Jordan, Magic, Allen Iverson, LeBron, and Harden (not quite as much as Harden, but in the same strata). He carried an enormous offensive load.

    Judging NBA players is a combination of their individual stats but also how well their individual stats and contributions contribute to the success of the team. Adrian Dantley is a perfect example. His individual stats are amazing and his efficiency was incredible, but there is ample evidence that his scoring (even at such incredible efficiency) did not make the team's offense any better (and actually was a detriment in some cases).

    Now, Harden is nowhere near Dantley in that regard, but it's an illustration that Harden's individual stats still don't positively impact the offense to the degree that Nash's individual stats do.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I would.

    Pippen is a secondary, complementary player more than he's a go-to elite offensive weapon who can carry you to a win night in and night out. He does a lot of things well, but if I can have one guy for one game, I want the elite offensive scoring threat who can give me 35/6/5, not the the jack of all trades who's probably going to give me 18/7/7. Pippen would be super far down this list for me.

    I'm going to continue to select Harden. And if it's not him, I'd go with Barkley, Dr. J or Giannis.
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Oh, cool, a single source that's more than two years old, and another team-based statistic. That'll change my opinion!

    Look, I'm not saying Nash isn't underrated or wasn't a phenomenal player. If I had to rank my personal top 30 all-time players, Nash is on that list. He was a phenomenal talent and one of the greatest (if not the greatest) playmakers of all-time, and I was a huge fan of his at his peak in Phoenix.

    But you're comparing apples and oranges here between a pass-first point guard and an all-around offensive juggernaut. Harden has proven that you can surround him with inferior talent, and he can get you 50 wins easily and a 4 seed. Nash never had to carry the offensive load Harden did, and he wasn't capable of the sheer offensive production of Harden.

    If you get one of these guys for one game and you pick Nash, you're banking on other guys to hit shots. And we have no clue who these hypothetical players are. What if they're bad 3-point shooters? What if they're bad pick and roll players? It's like I said in my previous post, in this exercise, you're not answering "which guy had the best peak." You're answering "which guy would you pick at his peak to win you a single game."

    Consider that, at his peak, Nash's USG% hovered around 22%. Harden's is more like 35%. So you're banking on four random guys to make up that 13% and be more productive with it than Harden. Even factoring in Harden's higher turnover rate in that USG%, I'm not buying that the other four random guys on this team are going to be anywhere near as efficient or productive as Harden with those possessions.
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I have literally no idea who youíre talking about here. When did anyone mention lob threats and who is DJ?
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: What does it being 2 years old have to do with anything? It's about Steve Nash. He retired in 2014. You think his numbers might have changed the last 2 years lol?

    Second Bolded: All-Time lists are comparing Apples to Oranges though, otherwise how would you ever have C's and PGs on the same list?

    Third Bolded: First, I don't think HAS to carry that load. That's his play style, to be incredibly ball dominant. He had CP3 and Eric Gordon and several good role players offensively, he did not need to score 30-35 PPG, he chose to. Second, Nash didn't carry the same scoring load Harden did, but he definitely carried near the offensive production load. Consider:

    Fourth Bolded: Usage isn't the best statistics for measuring their offensive role. Usage only measures the end result of a play. Offensive Load and Box Creation are better measures of someone's offensive load. Check out this video:

    https://youtu.be/r0934lGZ4dw

    If you go to the 6:29 mark of the video you'll see that once you combine their scoring load and their creation load, Nash's offensive load is on the same level of Jordan, Magic, Allen Iverson, LeBron, and Harden (not quite as much as Harden, but in the same strata). He carried an enormous offensive load.

    Judging NBA players is a combination of their individual stats but also how well their individual stats and contributions contribute to the success of the team. Adrian Dantley is a perfect example. His individual stats are amazing and his efficiency was incredible, but there is ample evidence that his scoring (even at such incredible efficiency) did not make the team's offense any better (and actually was a detriment in some cases).

    Now, Harden is nowhere near Dantley in that regard, but it's an illustration that Harden's individual stats still don't positively impact the offense to the degree that Nash's individual stats do.
    Harden and Paul never should have been broken up. I truly believe that.

    Paul/Harden/Ariza/PJ/Capela with Gordon as the 6th man really only had 2 years together and both times they ran into the Warriors. Imagine what would have happened this year...


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  11. #41
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    KnicksorBust... I request Dan Roundfield be added to the list.


    Jumping Joe too...
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I would.

    Pippen is a secondary, complementary player more than he's a go-to elite offensive weapon who can carry you to a win night in and night out. He does a lot of things well, but if I can have one guy for one game, I want the elite offensive scoring threat who can give me 35/6/5, not the the jack of all trades who's probably going to give me 18/7/7. Pippen would be super far down this list for me.

    I'm going to continue to select Harden. And if it's not him, I'd go with Barkley, Dr. J or Giannis.
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Oh, cool, a single source that's more than two years old, and another team-based statistic. That'll change my opinion!

    Look, I'm not saying Nash isn't underrated or wasn't a phenomenal player. If I had to rank my personal top 30 all-time players, Nash is on that list. He was a phenomenal talent and one of the greatest (if not the greatest) playmakers of all-time, and I was a huge fan of his at his peak in Phoenix.

    But you're comparing apples and oranges here between a pass-first point guard and an all-around offensive juggernaut. Harden has proven that you can surround him with inferior talent, and he can get you 50 wins easily and a 4 seed. Nash never had to carry the offensive load Harden did, and he wasn't capable of the sheer offensive production of Harden.

    If you get one of these guys for one game and you pick Nash, you're banking on other guys to hit shots. And we have no clue who these hypothetical players are. What if they're bad 3-point shooters? What if they're bad pick and roll players? It's like I said in my previous post, in this exercise, you're not answering "which guy had the best peak." You're answering "which guy would you pick at his peak to win you a single game."

    Consider that, at his peak, Nash's USG% hovered around 22%. Harden's is more like 35%. So you're banking on four random guys to make up that 13% and be more productive with it than Harden. Even factoring in Harden's higher turnover rate in that USG%, I'm not buying that the other four random guys on this team are going to be anywhere near as efficient or productive as Harden with those possessions.
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I have literally no idea who youíre talking about here. When did anyone mention lob threats and who is DJ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    KnicksorBust... I request Dan Roundfield be added to the list.


    Jumping Joe too...
    stop


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  13. #43
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    If Karl Malone wasn't banging 13 year old girls, I would actually feel bad with how criminally underrated he is. It should 100% be Malone, but I'm not going to vote for that POS.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    stop
    Dan Roundfield was FMVP with Michael Jordan and Kawhi Leonard on the same team. He should absolutely get recognized.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Harden and Paul never should have been broken up. I truly believe that.

    Paul/Harden/Ariza/PJ/Capela with Gordon as the 6th man really only had 2 years together and both times they ran into the Warriors. Imagine what would have happened this year...
    I don't think Morey wanted to break them up, but the relationship between Harden-Paul deteriorated to the point where they couldn't co-exist. I think if they hadn't ran into the historic Warriors or had been able to co-exist last season they likely walk away with a title.

    But in regards to this debate, if we're talking how close a team came. If Amare is healthy in 2006 the Suns probably win the title (they certainly get past Dallas in the WCF), and if Amare isn't suspended G5 of the next year's Spurs series, they possibly go on to win that one (though that was not a given), and if they did beat SA that year, they'd have walked through both Utah and Cleveland.

    So both players got excruciatingly close to a title but got unlucky. That just goes to show how much luck is involved in winning titles.

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