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View Poll Results: Who is the G.O.A.T at their absolute peak?

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  • James Harden

    2 25.00%
  • Tracy McGrady

    0 0%
  • Reggie Miller

    0 0%
  • Clyde Drexler

    1 12.50%
  • Dr. J

    0 0%
  • Karl Malone

    0 0%
  • Charles Barkley

    4 50.00%
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo

    1 12.50%
  • Elgin Baylor

    0 0%
  • Rick Barry

    0 0%
  • Isiah Thomas

    0 0%
  • Scottie Pippen

    0 0%
  • John Havlicek

    0 0%
  • Allen Iverson

    0 0%
  • Steve Nash

    0 0%
  • John Stockton

    0 0%
  • Russell Westbrook

    0 0%
  • Walt Frazier

    0 0%
  • Patrick Ewing

    0 0%
  • Willis Reed

    0 0%
  • Bob McAdoo

    0 0%
  • Anthony Davis

    0 0%
  • Kevin McHale

    0 0%
  • Wes Unseld

    0 0%
  • Dominique Wilkins

    0 0%
  • Grant Hill

    0 0%
  • George Gervin

    0 0%
  • Bob Cousy

    0 0%
  • George Mikan

    0 0%
  • Nate "Tiny" Archibald

    0 0%
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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Because Steve Nash by himself pretty much guarantees you have the best offense in the league. His offenses were always #1 or #2 in Ortg, even when losing Amare for the entire year. And in the playoffs, his offenses had a higher TS% relative to the rest of the league than any other offense in NBA history.

    As for individual scoring ability, what separates them is actually Harden's volume (and obviously Harden is a more skilled scorer in terms of how many different ways he can score). But Nash's scoring is very underrated. He had a .604 TS% on Phoenix in the playoffs (compared to .578% for Harden on Houston), and is statistically one of the best pull-up 3pt shooters ever, despite only taking 3-4 attempts a game. If you put Steve Nash in a modern offense where he puts up 7 3's a game, his efficiency and scoring would skyrocket.
    Nash was an amazing offensive player


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  2. #17
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    OFFICIAL G.O.A.T Peak Rankings - #23 (Only 3 spots left)

    Ewing

    I think my other two are Malone and Nash


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    Last edited by ewing; 09-14-2020 at 06:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Are you sure you would rather have Dr. J / Nash over Pippen?
    Of course


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Because Steve Nash by himself pretty much guarantees you have the best offense in the league. His offenses were always #1 or #2 in Ortg, even when losing Amare for the entire year. And in the playoffs, his offenses had a higher TS% relative to the rest of the league than any other offense in NBA history.
    PHX offensive rating in D'Antoni era
    O4-05: 114.5
    05-06: 111.5
    06-07: 113.9
    07-08: 113.3
    AVG: 113.3

    HOU offensive rating in D'Antoni era
    16-17: 114.7
    17-18: 114.7
    18-19: 115.5
    19-20: 112.9
    AVG: 114.45

    As for individual scoring ability, what separates them is actually Harden's volume (and obviously Harden is a more skilled scorer in terms of how many different ways he can score). But Nash's scoring is very underrated. He had a .604 TS% on Phoenix in the playoffs (compared to .578% for Harden on Houston), and is statistically one of the best pull-up 3pt shooters ever, despite only taking 3-4 attempts a game. If you put Steve Nash in a modern offense where he puts up 7 3's a game, his efficiency and scoring would skyrocket.
    Seriously? This is a dramatic underestimation of Harden's abilities as a scorer. Honestly to just say "volume separates them, but look at his TS%!" is like saying volume is what separates Tyson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan from MJ and Lebron, "but look how efficient they were around the rim!"

    Don't even attempt to compare them as scorers. It's night and day. In D'Anotni's "7 seconds or less" offense where they were putting up a ton of shots every game, he still never topped 19 points a game in a season. The volume was there if he wanted it—peak Nash is not capable of doing the things peak Harden can with a basketball.

    And I'm willing to give Nash perimeter shooting, but he's nowhere near the penetrator, finisher or pure scorer that Harden is.


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    PHX offensive rating in D'Antoni era
    O4-05: 114.5
    05-06: 111.5
    06-07: 113.9
    07-08: 113.3
    AVG: 113.3

    HOU offensive rating in D'Antoni era
    16-17: 114.7
    17-18: 114.7
    18-19: 115.5
    19-20: 112.9
    AVG: 114.45

    Seriously? This is a dramatic underestimation of Harden's abilities as a scorer. Honestly to just say "volume separates them, but look at his TS%!" is like saying volume is what separates Tyson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan from MJ and Lebron, "but look how efficient they were around the rim!"

    Don't even attempt to compare them as scorers. It's night and day. In D'Anotni's "7 seconds or less" offense where they were putting up a ton of shots every game, he still never topped 19 points a game in a season. The volume was there if he wanted it—peak Nash is not capable of doing the things peak Harden can with a basketball.

    And I'm willing to give Nash perimeter shooting, but he's nowhere near the penetrator, finisher or pure scorer that Harden is.
    Actually Nash and Harden have identical %'s from within 3ft of the basket (63.8%) in the regular season. Nash's problem in terms of scoring was he didn't look to score, he looked to pass to his teammates.

    As for your Ortg numbers, you're failing to take into account that the league today, it's easier to have a higher Ortg because of how many 3pt shots everyone is shooting. It's why Dallas this year put up the highest Ortg ever. That's why you look at how good their offense was relative to their peers. For reference, the median Ortg in 2005 was about 106.7. This year it was 111. So Nash's 114 in 2005 is a lot more impressive than Harden's 114 in 2019...

    From 2002 to 2010 Nash's offenses were: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. That is a feat only matched by one player in history: Magic.

    Harden's Houston offenses have been: 6th, 4th, 12th, 7th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 6th. And the only time he hit 2nd or 1st was with CP3 on the team.


    Harden is definitely a more talented player than Nash, and a more talented and versatile scorer. But Nash makes his team's offense better at perhaps the best rate in NBA history (him or Magic). If Harden's primary value is on offense, and Nash makes the offense better, why take Harden?

  6. #21
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    OFFICIAL G.O.A.T Peak Rankings - #23 (Only 3 spots left)

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Actually Nash and Harden have identical %'s from within 3ft of the basket (63.8%) in the regular season. Nash's problem in terms of scoring was he didn't look to score, he looked to pass to his teammates.

    As for your Ortg numbers, you're failing to take into account that the league today, it's easier to have a higher Ortg because of how many 3pt shots everyone is shooting. It's why Dallas this year put up the highest Ortg ever. That's why you look at how good their offense was relative to their peers. For reference, the median Ortg in 2005 was about 106.7. This year it was 111. So Nash's 114 in 2005 is a lot more impressive than Harden's 114 in 2019...

    From 2002 to 2010 Nash's offenses were: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. That is a feat only matched by one player in history: Magic.

    Harden's Houston offenses have been: 6th, 4th, 12th, 7th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 6th. And the only time he hit 2nd or 1st was with CP3 on the team.


    Harden is definitely a more talented player than Nash, and a more talented and versatile scorer. But Nash makes his team's offense better at perhaps the best rate in NBA history (him or Magic). If Harden's primary value is on offense, and Nash makes the offense better, why take Harden?
    I don’t think he is “more talented”. He’s stronger. What makes him definitely more talented?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post


    Why???????????????????????????? I will never understand. Like you feel "cool" because you went on an internet forum and called a voted on list of all-time players "trash". It's mind-boggling to me. Aren't we all on here to talk sports and debate players? Do any 2 people have the same exact same opinion? That's the fun of PSD. Do me a favor buddy, either vote for a player or move on to another thread. I'm enjoying the list.

    For the record, I think the top 9 is spot on. It's not my personal order but the top 9 is the right players. I also think every player from #10 to #22 is deserving of a spot in the top 25. They are all legends and have MVPs on their resumes. Making a list like this is hard. For example, I think if Karl Malone and Charles Barkley were ranked #12 and #13 on this list no one would even notice. They make sense there a few spots after Duncan. Yet, they might not even make the top 25.
    So why is Bill Walton ahead of Karl Malone then?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I would.

    Pippen is a secondary, complementary player more than he's a go-to elite offensive weapon who can carry you to a win night in and night out. He does a lot of things well, but if I can have one guy for one game, I want the elite offensive scoring threat who can give me 35/6/5, not the the jack of all trades who's probably going to give me 18/7/7. Pippen would be super far down this list for me.

    I'm going to continue to select Harden. And if it's not him, I'd go with Barkley, Dr. J or Giannis.
    Yeah like how is Bill Walton ahead of Peak Giannis or Harden and really the Admiral. There is just no f-ing way.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I don’t think he is “more talented”. He’s stronger. What makes him definitely more talented?
    I would say he can do more things than Nash on a basketball court, things that Nash could never do. I think most things Nash can do, Harden can as well, Nash just does them 100x better than Harden.

    Does that make sense?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Yeah like how is Bill Walton ahead of Peak Giannis or Harden and really the Admiral. There is just no f-ing way.
    Anything is possible


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  11. #26
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    Pippen could dominate a game without scoring, lets not underrate the importance of that kind of talent back in the 90's, prolly doesn't translate as well in a defenseless league but he would still be a great addition to any star.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Actually Nash and Harden have identical %'s from within 3ft of the basket (63.8%) in the regular season. Nash's problem in terms of scoring was he didn't look to score, he looked to pass to his teammates.

    As for your Ortg numbers, you're failing to take into account that the league today, it's easier to have a higher Ortg because of how many 3pt shots everyone is shooting. It's why Dallas this year put up the highest Ortg ever. That's why you look at how good their offense was relative to their peers. For reference, the median Ortg in 2005 was about 106.7. This year it was 111. So Nash's 114 in 2005 is a lot more impressive than Harden's 114 in 2019...

    From 2002 to 2010 Nash's offenses were: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. That is a feat only matched by one player in history: Magic.

    Harden's Houston offenses have been: 6th, 4th, 12th, 7th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 6th. And the only time he hit 2nd or 1st was with CP3 on the team.


    Harden is definitely a more talented player than Nash, and a more talented and versatile scorer. But Nash makes his team's offense better at perhaps the best rate in NBA history (him or Magic). If Harden's primary value is on offense, and Nash makes the offense better, why take Harden?
    You just compared the usage of insanely low volume finishers to MJ. Hes comparing the usage of an offensive mastermind who was pass first and has admitted he would've been more selfish knowing how the game is played today. He absolutely could've ramped up his usage in today's league, DJ will always just be a lob threat in any era. DUmb comp. Not saying Nash would be Curry, but in a league where guys like Trae Young can post impressive stat lines, a 2x MVP who kickstarted this era would thrive far more knowing where the game has gone as a result. I said the same thing about John Stockton back when Nash was winning those MVP's btw.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Yeah like how is Bill Walton ahead of Peak Giannis or Harden and really the Admiral. There is just no f-ing way.
    Superior basketball intellect, superior playoff performer, greater intangibles and impact on team wins.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Actually Nash and Harden have identical %'s from within 3ft of the basket (63.8%) in the regular season. Nash's problem in terms of scoring was he didn't look to score, he looked to pass to his teammates.
    Again, though, Nash is taking far, far, far fewer shots. And the degree of difficulty isn't the same. If Harden was the No. 2 or No. 3 scorer on the team and took only 60-80% as many FGA, his shooting percentages would skyrocket. (Look at his last year in OKC when he shot 49% from the floor and 39% from the 3-point line.)

    As for your Ortg numbers, you're failing to take into account that the league today, it's easier to have a higher Ortg because of how many 3pt shots everyone is shooting. It's why Dallas this year put up the highest Ortg ever. That's why you look at how good their offense was relative to their peers. For reference, the median Ortg in 2005 was about 106.7. This year it was 111. So Nash's 114 in 2005 is a lot more impressive than Harden's 114 in 2019...

    From 2002 to 2010 Nash's offenses were: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. That is a feat only matched by one player in history: Magic.

    Harden's Houston offenses have been: 6th, 4th, 12th, 7th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 6th. And the only time he hit 2nd or 1st was with CP3 on the team.
    Harden's also had terrible offensive coaches prior to D'Antoni joining Houston. And in the last four years with D'Antoni they've been 2nd, 1st, 2nd and 6th. So, yeah, I think Harden is a pretty ****ing elite playmaker who you can build an incredible offense around. (And it's worth nothing the two years the Rockets were second, they were second to the otherworldly Warriors.)

    Harden is definitely a more talented player than Nash, and a more talented and versatile scorer. But Nash makes his team's offense better at perhaps the best rate in NBA history (him or Magic). If Harden's primary value is on offense, and Nash makes the offense better, why take Harden?
    No. With the same coach, Harden's offenses were like 95% as good within their respective era as Nash's, even taking the volume of 3-pointers in this era into account. Also, I love that your entire argument in an individual debate is based around a team statistic, because you know Nash's individual numbers, talent and overall skills won't hold a candle to Harden.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; 09-14-2020 at 11:16 PM.


  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    You just compared the usage of insanely low volume finishers to MJ. Hes comparing the usage of an offensive mastermind who was pass first and has admitted he would've been more selfish knowing how the game is played today. He absolutely could've ramped up his usage in today's league, DJ will always just be a lob threat in any era. DUmb comp. Not saying Nash would be Curry, but in a league where guys like Trae Young can post impressive stat lines, a 2x MVP who kickstarted this era would thrive far more knowing where the game has gone as a result. I said the same thing about John Stockton back when Nash was winning those MVP's btw.
    I have literally no idea who you’re talking about here. When did anyone mention lob threats and who is DJ?

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