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View Poll Results: If Harden Gets traded… Where to?

Voters
7. You may not vote on this poll
  • Knicks

    1 14.29%
  • Spurs

    0 0%
  • Boston

    0 0%
  • Bucks

    0 0%
  • Portland

    0 0%
  • OKC lol

    0 0%
  • Denver

    0 0%
  • Cavs

    0 0%
  • Hawks

    0 0%
  • Bulls

    0 0%
  • Raptors

    0 0%
  • 76ers

    1 14.29%
  • Magic

    0 0%
  • Pistons

    0 0%
  • Pelicans

    0 0%
  • Westbrook will get traded

    2 28.57%
  • Harden will not Get Traded

    4 57.14%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dade County View Post
    Overall good post...

    Please watch.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGwf...nnel=NBAonESPN

    The man literally starts backing up more and more from the 3pt line. I can find more videos of Harden doing this.

    & PLEASE never, never, put H & Wade in the same sentence to compare them in anyway.
    Youtube clips are the poor man's argument. If someone wants to point out something good or bad about a player's game, all they do is have to find a small sample size of tape, record it and slap together a 3-minute Youtube video. That's why Harden has had the moniker of being a poor defender, even though those Youtube clips and highlights are years old.

    Also, get over yourself about Wade. This notion that Wade was that drastically superior a player to Harden is ridiculous. Better postseason performer and defender? Absolutely. But Harden's regular season numbers and overall offensive game are superior. There's a case to be made for Harden > Wade, and although I wouldn't personally make it, it's still not as ridiculous as you're making it out to be.

    This was the first reason... & it was true.
    Except the vast majority of his points don't come from the free throw line, he scores more points from field goals than any other player in the league and he's still averaged 26-plus points per game in every postseason he's played in with the Rockets despite not getting as many FTA.

    Blame KD. If Not KD, then LBJ, If not Lbj then that cheat trade that sent KG to Boston.
    It's not about "blaming" anyone. We have this notion in the NBA as fans that something is wrong with a player if they never win a title. There's not. Winning a championship is ****ing hard, especially when you play in an era of superteams where players have as much power as they do today.

    Now, do players who win titles add an extra feather to their caps that make their legacy resumes stronger? Absolutely. But if Harden never wins a title and ends up with a similar career to Barkley or Malone, does that make him a failure? No. Those guys are top 25 all-time players—which I think Harden will certainly be when he retires (if he isn't already). He is not in the same boat as Melo—a far inferior, lower IQ player—as some posters have suggested in this thread.

    As long as Harden isn't the alpha on the team, he has a chance to win a title. But I wouldn't trust Harden playing alongside AD or PG; and granting them a title off the bat (not saying that you did).
    I don't know what you really mean by "alpha." I'm guessing him being a vocal leader? Sure, whatever. But in terms of "alpha" as being the best player on his roster, yes, I do think he can win a title. He almost did once already. But it's going to take the right mix of players around him and the right circumstances in terms of matchups in the playoffs and talent on other teams.


  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Umm its not just PSD saying this about his lack of ball movement tho. Its been everywhere and has been brought up to the coaching staff by the media. It might be overstated but it still speaks to the predictability of the attack. Is Harden willing to play in a more egalitarian offense? He said he wished he could play in that kind of offense back in one All-Star game exchange with KD or some Warrior, it felt like he was dissing CP3 to me (iirc). Its like he purposely didn't help CP3 create offense for the team when he would just stand far away from the basket when CP3 had the ball.
    I'm not saying that I'm opposed to Harden moving off the ball. I have a problem with the notion that he's incapable of doing it. If he played in an offense that was predicated more on ball movement, I'm sure he'd be fine. The dude is an elite scorer, period. That's not what D'Antoni did with his system, and McHale didn't really have a system.

    Like who got more out of Westbrook, Harden or Paul George with the way they played? Which duo would you say was more productive together, Harden+RWB or PG13+RWB?
    Harden and Westbrook by a mile. Westbrook's advanced numbers weren't as good this season in Houston, but it's due to fewer assists and rebounds. But his PPG jumped nearly 4 and a half points, his FG% was the highest of his career and his TS% was the highest it's been in three years. And that's all despite being atrocious at the 3-point line despite getting a ton of open looks every night.

    Also those teams you mentioned had abit more varied approach in their attack, they weren't just allowing 1 player to spam the PnR/ISO at the top of the key, they were running horns(with Bron at the elbow), floppy sets (Ray/Korver/Kyrie/Wade) and you saw Bron in the post a decent chunk creating from there, attacking from the wing in isolation. It wasn't as easy to gameplan against and this is with the Rockets sacrificing all their size to get there.
    Again, I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome more variety in the offense. I hope the Rockets' new coach can implement a little more variety and give their offense some different looks. But I don't know that you can necessarily blame Harden for this. D'Antoni was clearly looking to maximize Harden's efficiency and productivity in isolation; a different coach might have a different approach.


  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Youtube clips are the poor man's argument. If someone wants to point out something good or bad about a player's game, all they do is have to find a small sample size of tape, record it and slap together a 3-minute Youtube video. That's why Harden has had the moniker of being a poor defender, even though those Youtube clips and highlights are years old.

    Also, get over yourself about Wade. This notion that Wade was that drastically superior a player to Harden is ridiculous. Better postseason performer and defender? Absolutely. But Harden's regular season numbers and overall offensive game are superior. There's a case to be made for Harden > Wade, and although I wouldn't personally make it, it's still not as ridiculous as you're making it out to be.


    Except the vast majority of his points don't come from the free throw line, he scores more points from field goals than any other player in the league and he's still averaged 26-plus points per game in every postseason he's played in with the Rockets despite not getting as many FTA.


    It's not about "blaming" anyone. We have this notion in the NBA as fans that something is wrong with a player if they never win a title. There's not. Winning a championship is ****ing hard, especially when you play in an era of superteams where players have as much power as they do today.

    Now, do players who win titles add an extra feather to their caps that make their legacy resumes stronger? Absolutely. But if Harden never wins a title and ends up with a similar career to Barkley or Malone, does that make him a failure? No. Those guys are top 25 all-time players—which I think Harden will certainly be when he retires (if he isn't already). He is not in the same boat as Melo—a far inferior, lower IQ player—as some posters have suggested in this thread.


    I don't know what you really mean by "alpha." I'm guessing him being a vocal leader? Sure, whatever. But in terms of "alpha" as being the best player on his roster, yes, I do think he can win a title. He almost did once already. But it's going to take the right mix of players around him and the right circumstances in terms of matchups in the playoffs and talent on other teams.
    There’s not a case for Harden > Wade.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    There’s not a case for Harden > Wade.
    Then you're being obtuse.

    Harden's six-year peak (14-20):
    At least 27/7/6/2 with a 25-30 PER, 60+% TS%, a WS/48 around .250 and a BPM around 8-9 with an MVP and three (possibly four) other second place MVP finishes while missing less than 20 total games in that timeframe and winning seven postseason series (and missing less than 20 total games in that stretch)

    Wade's six-year peak (05-11):
    At least 25/6/5/2 with a PER around 25-30, a 56+% TS%, a WS/48 around .220 and a BPM ranging from 6-10 with no MVPs or runner-up MVPs (two top five finishes) while winning seven postseason series and one title (and missing huge chunks of two seasons)

    Wade has the postseason resume, but you could even argue that Harden's postseason numbers are better overall. And I haven't even brought up longevity yet. Harden's peak and prime will almost certainly be miles longer than Wade, and he'll likely surpass Wade in every single all-time statistical category.

    If you think there's zero case to be made there, take off your homer glasses for a second. The same argument Wade fans made for him arguably being better than Kobe despite Kobe having the stronger postseason resume should apply here, too. The one thing that gives Wade the edge is the 2006 Finals run, which is his trump card.


  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Then you're being obtuse.

    Harden's six-year peak (14-20):
    At least 27/7/6/2 with a 25-30 PER, 60+% TS%, a WS/48 around .250 and a BPM around 8-9 with an MVP and three (possibly four) other second place MVP finishes while missing less than 20 total games in that timeframe and winning seven postseason series (and missing less than 20 total games in that stretch)

    Wade's six-year peak (05-11):
    At least 25/6/5/2 with a PER around 25-30, a 56+% TS%, a WS/48 around .220 and a BPM ranging from 6-10 with no MVPs or runner-up MVPs (two top five finishes) while winning seven postseason series and one title (and missing huge chunks of two seasons)

    Wade has the postseason resume, but you could even argue that Harden's postseason numbers are better overall. And I haven't even brought up longevity yet. Harden's peak and prime will almost certainly be miles longer than Wade, and he'll likely surpass Wade in every single all-time statistical category.

    If you think there's zero case to be made there, take off your homer glasses for a second. The same argument Wade fans made for him arguably being better than Kobe despite Kobe having the stronger postseason resume should apply here, too. The one thing that gives Wade the edge is the 2006 Finals run, which is his trump card.
    So statistically relatively close while Wade was a far superior defender and didn’t fold in the playoffs and carried his team to a championship. That’s not that close to me. Idk what this thing is going around PSD lately just throwing away the fact that guys like Giannis and Harden choke in the playoffs and trying to compare them and pick them over guys who were able to take over in the post season and bring their teams championships but it’s very weird to me.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  6. #96
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    Hardens definitely reaping the benefits of the “inflated numbers era” also.
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    8/24/2

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    So statistically relatively close while Wade was a far superior defender and didn’t fold in the playoffs and carried his team to a championship. That’s not that close to me. Idk what this thing is going around PSD lately just throwing away the fact that guys like Giannis and Harden choke in the playoffs and trying to compare them and pick them over guys who were able to take over in the post season and bring their teams championships but it’s very weird to me.
    Again, though, actually read what I'm writing:

    I do not personally think Harden is better than Wade because of postseason resumes. But these arguments are totally subjective. When you have two insanely productive star players with similar numbers from similar eras, you could use a zillion different barometers to make your case for either guy. If you value titles above all other factors, cool. Someone else might not.

    That's why I hate the "There's zero case to be made for Player X over Player Y" statement. It's just blatantly arrogant and naive, and it assumes no one could possibly have a viewpoint that differs based on a number of subjective factors that go into debates like this.

    Part of the problem with civil discourse in this country today is no one is willing to take a step back and say "I understand the opposing perspective and get why it has merit, but I personally don't believe it." You should try it sometime.


  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Then you're being obtuse.

    Harden's six-year peak (14-20):
    At least 27/7/6/2 with a 25-30 PER, 60+% TS%, a WS/48 around .250 and a BPM around 8-9 with an MVP and three (possibly four) other second place MVP finishes while missing less than 20 total games in that timeframe and winning seven postseason series (and missing less than 20 total games in that stretch)

    Wade's six-year peak (05-11):
    At least 25/6/5/2 with a PER around 25-30, a 56+% TS%, a WS/48 around .220 and a BPM ranging from 6-10 with no MVPs or runner-up MVPs (two top five finishes) while winning seven postseason series and one title (and missing huge chunks of two seasons)

    Wade has the postseason resume, but you could even argue that Harden's postseason numbers are better overall. And I haven't even brought up longevity yet. Harden's peak and prime will almost certainly be miles longer than Wade, and he'll likely surpass Wade in every single all-time statistical category.

    If you think there's zero case to be made there, take off your homer glasses for a second. The same argument Wade fans made for him arguably being better than Kobe despite Kobe having the stronger postseason resume should apply here, too. The one thing that gives Wade the edge is the 2006 Finals run, which is his trump card.
    I will regret coming to Wade's defense... I don't like Wade whatsoever... but I have to agree with Wade (the poster) about Wade (the player) being superior to Harden and it being fairly one-sided.

    While the "advanced stats" you used show 2x players who appear to be on par (it actually appears Harden is superior statistically), we have to provide context of the advanced stats you used.

    PER is not a good stat to use, we can just trash it for starters. Win Shares, while helpful and interesting to look at, is heavily team-oriented/influenced. Raw figures for points/rebounds/assists are less useful than using individual percentages (I'm too lazy to actually look them up, but I'll concede they are relatively close), and TS% is the most useful metric to look at when determining who was offensively more efficient (good advanced metric to use).

    While Harden is more efficient offensively, it isn't leaps and bounds more efficient than Wade. When considering the other half of basketball, Wade takes a royal dump on Harden. The gap is so astronomical between Wade and Harden defensively, that the edge Harden has over Wade offensively looks insignificant.

    Not to mention the postseason, which even you would concede that Harden is inferior.

    An immeasurable and subjective point to show a clear distinction between the two players is that Wade was always a great leader. I hate the b---h, but being objective, he has always been a good leader to his team in my eyes. I'd argue he was more of a leader than LeBron was when they played in Miami together. Harden, on the other hand, is not someone I would ever want as my team leader. I dislike Chris Paul with the passion, but he was a great fit next to Harden in that CP3 is a natural born leader. He filled the Rockets role perfectly. Perhaps Harden hated that aspect of CP3's role on the Rockets and that is why CP3 was traded for an inferior player... This is to my point though... Harden isn't a quality leader. I'm saying this, and while I'm not a Harden fan, I don't loathe him in the same way I loathe CP3 and especially Wade.


    I actually don't understand why "HEAT" and/or Wade fans despise Harden so much though. Harden made a career doing the same thing that Wade did... Attack the rim, jerk head back with minimal or no contact to lay the ball in the hoop to get the and-one. They are really similar in that regard. If you hate Harden doing it, why does Wade get a pass?
    Last edited by Redrum187; 09-15-2020 at 12:23 PM.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

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    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    I will regret coming to Wade's defense... I don't like Wade whatsoever... but I have to agree with Wade (the poster) about Wade (the player) being superior to Harden and it being fairly one-sided.

    While the "advanced stats" you used show 2x players who appear to be on par (it actually appears Harden is superior statistically), we have to provide context of the advanced stats you used.

    PER is not a good stat to use, we can just trash it for starters. Win Shares, while helpful and interesting to look at, is heavily team-oriented/influenced. Raw figures for points/rebounds/assists are less useful than using individual percentages (I'm too lazy to actually look them up, but I'll concede they are relatively close), and TS% is the most useful metric to look at when determining who was offensively more efficient (good advanced metric to use).

    While Harden is more efficient offensively, it isn't leaps and bounds more efficient than Wade. When considering the other half of basketball, Wade takes a royal dump on Harden. The gap is so astronomical between Wade and Harden defensively, that the edge Harden has over Wade offensively looks insignificant.

    Not to mention the postseason, which even you would concede that Harden is inferior.


    I actually don't understand why "HEAT" and/or Wade fans despise Harden so much though. Harden made a career doing the same thing that Wade did... Attack the rim, jerk head back with minimal or no contact to lay the ball in the hoop to get the and-one. They are really similar in that regard. If you hate Harden doing it, why does Wade get a pass?
    I don’t hate Harden. There’s a difference in how they drew fouls. Harden is throwing his head and swinging his arms everywhere just trying to find any contact. Also does the thing at the 3 point line where he uses a screen and keeps his defender on his back then throws it up real fast after the defender comes over the screen to get a foul on his hip.

    Wade was just too fast and was going to try and dunk on you every time and didn’t care if he got laid out by the bigs. He attacked with full force. He also had the best pump fake we’ve ever seen so he was getting guys in the air and drawing contact.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  10. #100
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    Mavs fans are so salty 15 years later about Wade beating them in the 06 finals lmao. Get the **** over it redrum you sound pitiful. Did I hate dirk after they beat us in 2011 after LeBrons choke job? Yes for a year or so but it’s not that serious.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Luka/Harden backcourt in Dallas?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hell no.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Mavs fans are so salty 15 years later about Wade beating them in the 06 finals lmao. Get the **** over it redrum you sound pitiful. Did I hate dirk after they beat us in 2011 after LeBrons choke job? Yes for a year or so but it’s not that serious.
    I mean, that series along with the Lakers/Kings series are undeniably the 2 most controversial series in NBA modern history. I would love to see a 30-for-30 about both series. Literally, a ref who served time in prison for admittedly betting on games called out the refs/NBA fixing that series. He even made a video doing a play-by-play of the series.

    At the end of the day, my being salty (rightfully so) doesn't affect my ability to be rational and objective though. You should at least respect that I defend truth, even when it's against a player I loathe.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I don’t hate Harden. There’s a difference in how they drew fouls. Harden is throwing his head and swinging his arms everywhere just trying to find any contact. Also does the thing at the 3 point line where he uses a screen and keeps his defender on his back then throws it up real fast after the defender comes over the screen to get a foul on his hip.

    Wade was just too fast and was going to try and dunk on you every time and didn’t care if he got laid out by the bigs. He attacked with full force. He also had the best pump fake we’ve ever seen so he was getting guys in the air and drawing contact.
    You view Wade in the same way Harden/Rocket fans views Harden.

    The truth is, both players were/are fearless rim attackers, both players would frequently get fouled attacking the rim, but both players flopped like a mf'er to get the calls even when there was minimal or no contact. I would say Wade got the regular season AND postseason calls... Harden predominantly got them just in the regular season.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I was looking less at the actual players and more at the style they’ve tried with him. Different roles, different types of offenses. But the issues still remain.
    Theres isnt a player in the league that can win a ship with a washed up WB, or a washed up versian of Howard. Name me one.

    With out enough talent nothing else matters. You cant win with those guys as your 2nd fiddle.

    Best player Harden has had on his team in Houston is by far Chris Paul, and Paul got injured in the playoffa when it counted.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-15-2020 at 01:14 PM.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dade County View Post
    They can't stand each other, but I believe that these 2 players need each other lmao

    But both players need work. Giannis needs to be able to score down low back to the basket. Harden needs to be able to not have to have the ball in his hands, to be effective.
    Thats an interesting take. They would sorta be perfect for eachother wouldnt they.. and I agree neither player is with out flaws

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