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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I think you guys go over board with the whole, its bad to treat players like assets thing. Its not like there aren't professionals in the league that know its a business. Hell, Ariza came back to Houston regardless.
    It's not so much about the emotional aspect but the chemistry aspect. Guys who play together develop better chemistry. KD just talked about how the constant roster turmoil has made it tough on Embiid and Simmons and I think there's something to that.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I think you guys go over board with the whole, its bad to treat players like assets thing. Its not like there aren't professionals in the league that know its a business. Hell, Ariza came back to Houston regardless.
    I have no issue with that. Your goal should be to create the best team possible and if trading and tinkering with the roster does that, then make those moves. My problem with him is lack of results.

    I'm a Brewers fan. And while baseball had a drastically different financial structure, the Brewers GM is actually somewhat similar. He's very analytically oriented and well respected around the league, but sometimes, he takes things too far and tries to get too cute with stuff. Like instead of spending $15 mill on one player, hell spend $3-$5 mill on 4 guys and try to hit the perfect platoon and hope a few of the guys are hot at the same time. It works sometimes and 1 time even got the brewers to a game 7 to get to the World Series. But then he kept trying to do that platooning and bullpenning and the brewers haven't reached those heights again and seem kind of stuck as a decent but not elite team.

    And that's basically where Houston is in the NBA. Sometimes, it feels like some of the heavy analytics guys can gst too cute with things. They look for every tiny advantage and build a team that theoretically can compete, but the theoretical stuff then rarely actuallg works unless the perfect situation lands.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I have no issue with that. Your goal should be to create the best team possible and if trading and tinkering with the roster does that, then make those moves. My problem with him is lack of results.

    I'm a Brewers fan. And while baseball had a drastically different financial structure, the Brewers GM is actually somewhat similar. He's very analytically oriented and well respected around the league, but sometimes, he takes things too far and tries to get too cute with stuff. Like instead of spending $15 mill on one player, hell spend $3-$5 mill on 4 guys and try to hit the perfect platoon and hope a few of the guys are hot at the same time. It works sometimes and 1 time even got the brewers to a game 7 to get to the World Series. But then he kept trying to do that platooning and bullpenning and the brewers haven't reached those heights again and seem kind of stuck as a decent but not elite team.

    And that's basically where Houston is in the NBA. Sometimes, it feels like some of the heavy analytics guys can gst too cute with things. They look for every tiny advantage and build a team that theoretically can compete, but the theoretical stuff then rarely actuallg works unless the perfect situation lands.

    Again, though, you and I have very different opinions of what "results" should be for a GM. I look at the job a GM has done in taking the assets given to him and making those assets better. If a GM can turn water into wine every offseason and overall create assets out of thin air, that's more impressive to me than a title.

    I mentioned it in the Pat Riley thread, but Riley's job since Lebron has left in rebuilding the Heat into a legit playoff contender has been exponentially more impressive than the job he did in actually getting Lebron here and winning a title.

    Masai Ujiri is another great example of a fantastic analytics-driven GM who is among the best in the league. Based on your logic, he would be considered a success, but what if that incredible Game 7 winner by Kawhi doesn't get that friendly bounce, and they end up losing the ECF to Philly last year. Does that make the job he's done as GM any less impressive? No. Because he didn't have control over whether that shot went in, just like Morey didn't have control over CP3's hamstring in 2017 or whether Dwight freaking Howard would actually buy into a pick and roll offense.

    All you can do as a GM is consistently add value to your roster and try to get better every year despite obstacles in front of you, and Morey has done that for over a decade now. Just because he doesn't have a championship doesn't diminish the job he's done.


  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It's not so much about the emotional aspect but the chemistry aspect. Guys who play together develop better chemistry. KD just talked about how the constant roster turmoil has made it tough on Embiid and Simmons and I think there's something to that.
    There are very few players Morey has let go that I think were a huge knock on chemistry and ultimately ended up hurting their chances to contend. In hindsight, letting Ariza walk in 2018 was probably a mistake. But I think that decision came down to the contract more than Morey not wanting to bring him back. But he dodged a bullet by not re-signing Chandler Parsons, dealing Pat Bev and co. for Paul was clearly the right move, and the Capela trade needed to happen since he and Westbrook could not coexist on the floor together.

    I think a lot of the backlash Morey got for moving guys like they were chess pieces happened early in his career before they got Harden. But since he's added James and turned the Rockets into a perennial 55-win team, he's mostly tried to keep the core together. The only major shifts in the core came from opportunities to get better, not overpaying role players or out of necessity for the chemistry of the team (mainly the Paul/Westbrook trade).


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    There are very few players Morey has let go that I think were a huge knock on chemistry and ultimately ended up hurting their chances to contend. In hindsight, letting Ariza walk in 2018 was probably a mistake. But I think that decision came down to the contract more than Morey not wanting to bring him back. But he dodged a bullet by not re-signing Chandler Parsons, dealing Pat Bev and co. for Paul was clearly the right move, and the Capela trade needed to happen since he and Westbrook could not coexist on the floor together.

    I think a lot of the backlash Morey got for moving guys like they were chess pieces happened early in his career before they got Harden. But since he's added James and turned the Rockets into a perennial 55-win team, he's mostly tried to keep the core together. The only major shifts in the core came from opportunities to get better, not overpaying role players or out of necessity for the chemistry of the team (mainly the Paul/Westbrook trade).
    A massive bullet lol

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Again, though, you and I have very different opinions of what "results" should be for a GM. I look at the job a GM has done in taking the assets given to him and making those assets better. If a GM can turn water into wine every offseason and overall create assets out of thin air, that's more impressive to me than a title.

    I mentioned it in the Pat Riley thread, but Riley's job since Lebron has left in rebuilding the Heat into a legit playoff contender has been exponentially more impressive than the job he did in actually getting Lebron here and winning a title.

    Masai Ujiri is another great example of a fantastic analytics-driven GM who is among the best in the league. Based on your logic, he would be considered a success, but what if that incredible Game 7 winner by Kawhi doesn't get that friendly bounce, and they end up losing the ECF to Philly last year. Does that make the job he's done as GM any less impressive? No. Because he didn't have control over whether that shot went in, just like Morey didn't have control over CP3's hamstring in 2017 or whether Dwight freaking Howard would actually buy into a pick and roll offense.

    All you can do as a GM is consistently add value to your roster and try to get better every year despite obstacles in front of you, and Morey has done that for over a decade now. Just because he doesn't have a championship doesn't diminish the job he's done.
    How many times have the rockets had the best roster in the nba? Or how many times have they had a top 3 roster in the nba? You can maybe argue 2 or 3 times they've actually had a roster that was a real threat to win a ring.

    If injuries were constantly the reason they werent winning, it's a different story. But that really hasnt been the case. He's consistently maintained, at least lately, a top 5ish team that's consistently a level below the best teams in the league. Barring injuries or wildly absurd, prolonged hot stretches, the rockets aren't winning a ring. And that's mostly been the case.

    No one is saying he's garbage. But if you're going to come in here and start a full thread about him the most under appreciated GM in all of sports, he better have done something to earn that. If you say Morey is a good GM. Fine, I doubt anyone has an issue with that. But this entire thread was made to gas him up.

    In 10-20 years when we look back at this era of the nba, how many people are going to remember/talk about the rockets? Outside of rockets fans very few. They aren't the Jazz of the 90s where we say they may have won a couple if they didn't run into Jordan's Bulls. Maybe we talk about Harden's stretch of elite offensive play, but outside of that, this rockets team from the last 5 or so years, which is the best team Morey has had, will almost certainly be an afterthought. If you're not winning rings, you at least need to build a strong enough team to be more than an afterthought to be elite.

    In your eyes, the job of a GM is to make more positive moves than negative moves. You pretty much are judging the GM on each move individually and grading that way. If you make a bunch of good moves and have very few bad moves, you're good. I just can't judge that way. Professional sports aren't a bunch of micro transactions that can be judged in a portfolio and have the overall portfolio scored. Pro sports is winning and assembling teams who can/should win. He hasn't done that. Even if he has more positive than negative moves, the lack of post season success will always make those moves secondary to the lack of success when measuring him as a truly great GM. Doesn't mean he isn't good and isn't better than alot of GMs, just means he can't be considered some genius until he actually capitalizes.

    Also, it's absolutely morey's fault that Dwight didnt buy in. Signing a guy who immediately doesn't buy in deserves flack, espeically from a guy who's giving him credit for discovering covington who did nothing for the rockets prior to his initial departure. Or crediting him for Dragic who left for basically nothing.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    How many times have the rockets had the best roster in the nba? Or how many times have they had a top 3 roster in the nba? You can maybe argue 2 or 3 times they've actually had a roster that was a real threat to win a ring.

    If injuries were constantly the reason they werent winning, it's a different story. But that really hasnt been the case. He's consistently maintained, at least lately, a top 5ish team that's consistently a level below the best teams in the league. Barring injuries or wildly absurd, prolonged hot stretches, the rockets aren't winning a ring. And that's mostly been the case.

    No one is saying he's garbage. But if you're going to come in here and start a full thread about him the most under appreciated GM in all of sports, he better have done something to earn that. If you say Morey is a good GM. Fine, I doubt anyone has an issue with that. But this entire thread was made to gas him up.

    In 10-20 years when we look back at this era of the nba, how many people are going to remember/talk about the rockets? Outside of rockets fans very few. They aren't the Jazz of the 90s where we say they may have won a couple if they didn't run into Jordan's Bulls. Maybe we talk about Harden's stretch of elite offensive play, but outside of that, this rockets team from the last 5 or so years, which is the best team Morey has had, will almost certainly be an afterthought. If you're not winning rings, you at least need to build a strong enough team to be more than an afterthought to be elite.

    In your eyes, the job of a GM is to make more positive moves than negative moves. You pretty much are judging the GM on each move individually and grading that way. If you make a bunch of good moves and have very few bad moves, you're good. I just can't judge that way. Professional sports aren't a bunch of micro transactions that can be judged in a portfolio and have the overall portfolio scored. Pro sports is winning and assembling teams who can/should win. He hasn't done that. Even if he has more positive than negative moves, the lack of post season success will always make those moves secondary to the lack of success when measuring him as a truly great GM. Doesn't mean he isn't good and isn't better than alot of GMs, just means he can't be considered some genius until he actually capitalizes.

    Also, it's absolutely morey's fault that Dwight didnt buy in. Signing a guy who immediately doesn't buy in deserves flack, espeically from a guy who's giving him credit for discovering covington who did nothing for the rockets prior to his initial departure. Or crediting him for Dragic who left for basically nothing.
    Why aren't they the 90s Jazz? They were a top team who at their absolute best ran into the Warriors Dynasty TWICE and suffered injuries.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Why aren't they the 90s Jazz? They were a top team who at their absolute best ran into the Warriors Dynasty TWICE and suffered injuries.
    Cuz they only made the conference finals twice and were really only competitive one time. Even with Durant hurt, they couldn't overcome the warriors. They also got trounced by the Lakers when the warriors were hurt. Do you honestly think in 10 years we are going to be saying the Rockets probably would have won multiple rings if the Warriors didn't exist? They still would have had to beat LeBron, who usually put up a decent fight against a warriors team that was better than the rockets. If anything, lebron's Cavs are going to be considered closer to the Jazz than the Rockets.

    It's impossible to say for sure but if the Warriors didn't exist, how many rings do the rockets win? I would say maybe 1, if everyone stayed healthy in 17/18 season, as that was a weak cavs team. But I'm not even sure you can be all that confident in saying they would have beaten lebron. And depending how we do our hypothetical, if the warriors don't exist, does Durant stay in OKC? If that's the case is houston better than OKC in 17/18? I'm not sure I'd say yes.

    My point is more that it's not like the rockets were the clear second best team in the nba but ran into an all time team like the warriors. They were amongst those teams, but even if you remove the warriors from the equation, they may not have been good enough to even win 1 ring, much less be a team winning a bunch of rings.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 09-17-2020 at 08:55 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It's not so much about the emotional aspect but the chemistry aspect. Guys who play together develop better chemistry. KD just talked about how the constant roster turmoil has made it tough on Embiid and Simmons and I think there's something to that.
    I think we could have a whole thread on this, but my part on that KD thing I think as it applies to all teams:

    You are going to have constant roster turnover on all teams. Whatís in a way hiring Harden and Simmons/Embiid is that the style is also constantly changing. If they wanted to stay PNR with shooters and put Harden/Capella out there with shooters, and the change was the shooters I think thatís fine. The problem is they donít settle on that style all too well. Same with Simmons/Embiid. Itís so reactionary to do all shooters with little defense, and that didnít work so they go heavy on defense with guys that can score 1-on-1, and that didnít work so they went very big with passers, and that didnít work.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Why aren't they the 90s Jazz? They were a top team who at their absolute best ran into the Warriors Dynasty TWICE and suffered injuries.
    Bc they werenít as good


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Cuz they only made the conference finals twice and were really only competitive one time. Even with Durant hurt, they couldn't overcome the warriors. They also got trounced by the Lakers when the warriors were hurt. Do you honestly think in 10 years we are going to be saying the Rockets probably would have won multiple rings if the Warriors didn't exist? They still would have had to beat LeBron, who usually put up a decent fight against a warriors team that was better than the rockets. If anything, lebron's Cavs are going to be considered closer to the Jazz than the Rockets.

    It's impossible to say for sure but if the Warriors didn't exist, how many rings do the rockets win? I would say maybe 1, if everyone stayed healthy in 17/18 season, as that was a weak cavs team. But I'm not even sure you can be all that confident in saying they would have beaten lebron. And depending how we do our hypothetical, if the warriors don't exist, does Durant stay in OKC? If that's the case is houston better than OKC in 17/18? I'm not sure I'd say yes.

    My point is more that it's not like the rockets were the clear second best team in the nba but ran into an all time team like the warriors. They were amongst those teams, but even if you remove the warriors from the equation, they may not have been good enough to even win 1 ring, much less be a team winning a bunch of rings.
    Who is running around in 2020 saying "The Jazz would have multiple rings if not for the Bulls!!!" ? Rockets in 2018 won more games in the regular season than any Jazz team ever. CP3 doesn't get injured I think they win the title. The Jazz were fully healthy and facing the END of the Bulls dynasty. Big difference.


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  12. #72
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    There is a report that the Sixers are eyeing both Daryl Morey and Kevin pritchard for team president job. I thought Morey already turned down the Sixers job last off season?

    As a Sixers fan I like both. Huge upgrade over Elton Brand.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Who is running around in 2020 saying "The Jazz would have multiple rings if not for the Bulls!!!" ? Rockets in 2018 won more games in the regular season than any Jazz team ever. CP3 doesn't get injured I think they win the title. The Jazz were fully healthy and facing the END of the Bulls dynasty. Big difference.
    Jazz fans


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #74
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    This deserves a bump. I'll be drinking heavily this evening...


  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe1016 View Post
    There is a report that the Sixers are eyeing both Daryl Morey and Kevin pritchard for team president job. I thought Morey already turned down the Sixers job last off season?

    As a Sixers fan I like both. Huge upgrade over Elton Brand.
    Brand is probably the worst GM in the league. The dude only likes players who play his position. And while Im half joking about that, lets look at his core.

    Embiid C
    Horford PF/C
    Harris PF
    Simmons PG who is best at PF

    That core is owed $120 mill next year....

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