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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Wait until your realize he has 7!
    **** that’s right. GOAT.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I mean, those guys arent considered top 5 of all time types or even really top 10 of all time types. In the nba in particular, rings matter a ton. Giannis has an mvp and a dpoy. He will likely win a 2nd mvp this year. It's far from guaranteed, but it's not inconceivable that he could win a few more MVPs. I don't think giannis will ever be considered the GOAT, but if we start talking about a guy who wins 4 MVPs and maybe then also gets 3 rings or something, that's top 10 player of all time discussion for sure.

    And I guess that's why it matters alot. Assuming giannis doesn't get severely injured or his play just falls off a cliff, he's on an easy hall of fame path. But if he wants to be considered a top 10 type of guy, I dont see any way it happens without winning a couple rings.
    If his play on the court is top 10 all time, the ring is a tie breaker not a door opener to me.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    **** that’s right. GOAT.
    Easily! [emoji23]

  4. #274
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    But Giannis ain't winning any rings in Milwaukee tho...he better be suited just leavin Milwaukee foreal

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    The rings argument is so ****ing tired. So few teams have ever one it and such a small percent of players have ever won it. Does the lack of a ring somehow mean a player wasn’t a great player? **** no. Karl Malone, John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley are still great players. The rings argument is such a fanboy simple thing to judge the quality player. **** with 5 rings Robert Horry would be one of the greatest 6th me of all time then.
    So if Jordan had 0 rings he’d still be considered the goat? Championships matter when you’re at the top or trying to get there.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    So if Jordan had 0 rings he’d still be considered the goat? Championships matter when you’re at the top or trying to get there.
    To me....yes. Rings being that valuable to all time ranking is something made up by "debate culture" media because they don't want to talk about the nuances of the game.

    It's like saying my buddy with a degree in accounting did my taxes vs a CPA did my taxes. The buddy with the degree might have gotten more in terms of tax breaks for you but saying CPA just sounds good.

    You should be able to tell if a player is good or not regardless of having championships.

  7. #277
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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    So if Jordan had 0 rings he’d still be considered the goat? Championships matter when you’re at the top or trying to get there.
    Also, then why isn't Bill Russell the GOAT if the rings matter that much? 11 rings in 13 seasons and a top 10 center of all time. So having a 87% chance of winning a championship would outweigh where he's behind statistically right?

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Also, then why isn't Bill Russell the GOAT if the rings matter that much? 11 rings in 13 seasons and a top 10 center of all time. So having a 87% chance of winning a championship would outweigh where he's behind statistically right?
    Rings are only a part of the equation not the full story which is why he isn’t considered the GOAT. You have to take everything into account when it comes to ranking guys. Peak longevity accolades and rings. Jordan wouldn’t be considered the GOAT without any rings. He would’ve been known as a very elite player that couldn’t get it done, it would be LeBron.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

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  10. #280
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    Mah, I disagree. I look at rings as the icing on the cake to what they were as a player. If you didn't have LeBron on top 10 all-time projection before rings that says more about you than it does the player. As much as the NBA is a sport about the best players, it's also about the team as a whole. Consider that since 1980, only 12 different teams have ever won an NBA championship with only 4 of them winning it 1 time in that span (Raptors, Cavs, Mavs, Sixers), and in 2 of those we're likely 1 injury a time from having it be the same 8 teams winning in a 30 year span (Klay/KD for Raps, Curry's knee/Greens ejection for the Cavs).

    So that's my issue with fans putting so much pressure on the rings argument to say a player is great. It continually forces players to one of these recent NBA history great teams in those 8, which takes it really down to 4 anymore when you take out the Spurs, Pistons, Rockets, and Bulls. That means if you have the rings argument, all the top players in the last 30 years need to go to LA Lakers, Boston Celtics, Miami Heat, Golden State Warriors.

    So we get silly **** like super teams because we judge players with rings as a major part of the argument rather than the icing on the cake of talking about great players.

    And FWIW the reason Bill Russell is not on top of my top 5 centers of all time, along with Kareem, is due to the face that there was a real lack of league depth at center when those two played. That honor goes to Shaq. He played in a big man era and managed to get rings to show he was the best in that time on top of the statistical domination. LeBron is one of the best SF's of all time because he's playing in the era of wing basketball and managed to win big in that time. Jordan would have been my GOAT regardless because he played an era where doing the things he was doing were nearly impossible and doing it at such a high rate statistically it was hard to anyone else to match.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Mah, I disagree. I look at rings as the icing on the cake to what they were as a player. If you didn't have LeBron on top 10 all-time projection before rings that says more about you than it does the player. As much as the NBA is a sport about the best players, it's also about the team as a whole. Consider that since 1980, only 12 different teams have ever won an NBA championship with only 4 of them winning it 1 time in that span (Raptors, Cavs, Mavs, Sixers), and in 2 of those we're likely 1 injury a time from having it be the same 8 teams winning in a 30 year span (Klay/KD for Raps, Curry's knee/Greens ejection for the Cavs).

    So that's my issue with fans putting so much pressure on the rings argument to say a player is great. It continually forces players to one of these recent NBA history great teams in those 8, which takes it really down to 4 anymore when you take out the Spurs, Pistons, Rockets, and Bulls. That means if you have the rings argument, all the top players in the last 30 years need to go to LA Lakers, Boston Celtics, Miami Heat, Golden State Warriors.

    So we get silly **** like super teams because we judge players with rings as a major part of the argument rather than the icing on the cake of talking about great players.

    And FWIW the reason Bill Russell is not on top of my top 5 centers of all time, along with Kareem, is due to the face that there was a real lack of league depth at center when those two played. That honor goes to Shaq. He played in a big man era and managed to get rings to show he was the best in that time on top of the statistical domination. LeBron is one of the best SF's of all time because he's playing in the era of wing basketball and managed to win big in that time. Jordan would have been my GOAT regardless because he played an era where doing the things he was doing were nearly impossible and doing it at such a high rate statistically it was hard to anyone else to match.
    But when you're talking top players of all time, you're talking tiebreakers. No one is head and shoulders above everyone else. I also think it's wildly naive to thinl your opinion of Jordan wouldnt be different if he had 1 or 0 rings.

    Not the time or place, but I couldn't disagree more with your last point about Jordan. Jordan revolutionized the game but he played in an incredibly weak era of wing defenders. That era was almost exclusively PGs, PFs and Cs. Give Jordan a ton of credit for being one of the first in that era to really buck the trend and be a dominant SG, but most of the guys he was cooking every night couldn't hold a candle to the generation of wing defenders that came after him. The one guy in the league equipped to possibly stick with prime Jordan was on his team.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    This sounds nice, and I'm sure the owners mean it, but the reality is that Giannis needs another A-Level wing man to win a title, or at least another Middleton-level player, and no players of that caliber want to live in Milwaukee.

    Being a Raps fan, I have empathy for the Bucks fans. You can build the right kind of culture, have the right front office and coaching staff, good players, and at the end of the day you play in a cold city that no one wants to live in. The team the Raps built these past 5 years were all through trades and the draft. The last big free agent signing they had was Hedo Turkoglu in 2009 and that turned out to be a failure.

    The Bucks are going to face these same type of issues.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But when you're talking top players of all time, you're talking tiebreakers. No one is head and shoulders above everyone else. I also think it's wildly naive to thinl your opinion of Jordan wouldnt be different if he had 1 or 0 rings.
    It wouldn't. I know there's a lot of AI hate but he's one of my top 5 SG's of all time. 0 rings. What I'm saying is Giannis in the long run shouldn't need a ring to be in that conversation. Maybe if he gets a ring it would put him ahead of someone else statistically similar, but if he's statistically better than say, KG, why should we arbitrarily put KG higher?

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Giannis will stay in Milwaukee at this point. Why? He's eligible for a supermax and no chance he turns that down especially when it is on the table. But if he stays, the only way he stays in Milwaukee is if they win the chip next season and or they get someone via trade to pair up with Giannis and Middleton but who? I say CP3...Chris Paul ends up in Milwaukee with Giannis and Middleton. If he doesn't win the chip next season, he is definitely gone.
    Not every player commits to the super max. Didn’t Kemba Walker walk away from a Super max with Charlotte?

    Is CP3 the right guy? They do need a PG but personally I’d like to see the Bucks trade for Jrue Holiday.


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  15. #285
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    If the Bucks keep Giannis and he plays the year out, I could see Boston trying to get a meeting with him next year. And then if he wants to come to Boston they work out a S&T with MIL centered on Jaylen Brown.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

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