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  1. #751
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    Recency Bias. Think Lonzo had a triple double like his first week in the league. He was just drafted #2 a few years ago. Lonzo is shooting 39% from the field, Coby is shooting 40. Of course I believe White will get better, but Lonzo was viewed as an elite playmaker just a few years ago, then played for two teams whose coaches got fired, with extremely young rosters. It's highly debatable which of them will have greater long term success.

    Coby is 5-6 years from his NBA prime, which will take him well through his second contract. Lonzo is 3-4 years from his, and I know everyone hits their prime at different years, but NBA prime average is around 27. Do we have that long to wait? He'll get a near max contract well before then.

    If we could get Lonzo for less, that would be great. We still have Coby for two more years on his rookie contract, and he could get 6th man minutes and kill. We're looking at him as Jamal Murray, but what if he's more Jamal Crawford/Lou Williams, two great NBA players more suited to bench scoring? We don't have an elite passer like Jokic to make up for that.

    My bad, Lonzo put up 29 pts, 11 rebounds, 9 assists his second NBA game. He was one assist short of being the youngest player in NBA history with a triple double. Took him a few more weeks to break the record, Nov 1th. he had just won Summer League MVP and broke a couple of all time assist records. Got his second triple double a week later. he's 1 of 4 players in NBA history to average 6 assists and 6 rebounds under 20. Hard to say Coby has shown more than him. And he's known as a great defender, people REALLY don't care about defense these days.

    Last thought, Jamal Murray is more a SG than PG. We can't have as a starter with Zach, an elite SG. I'd easily throw in a first if we could keep Coby though, think Lonzo would help us much more than a rookie.
    Last edited by infinity2152; 01-23-2021 at 11:10 PM.

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity2152 View Post
    Recency Bias. Think Lonzo had a triple double like his first week in the league. He was just drafted #2 a few years ago. Lonzo is shooting 39% from the field, Coby is shooting 40. Of course I believe White will get better, but Lonzo was viewed as an elite playmaker just a few years ago, then played for two teams whose coaches got fired, with extremely young rosters. It's highly debatable which of them will have greater long term success.

    Coby is 5-6 years from his NBA prime, which will take him well through his second contract. Lonzo is 3-4 years from his, and I know everyone hits their prime at different years, but NBA prime average is around 27. Do we have that long to wait? He'll get a near max contract well before then.

    If we could get Lonzo for less, that would be great. We still have Coby for two more years on his rookie contract, and he could get 6th man minutes and kill. We're looking at him as Jamal Murray, but what if he's more Jamal Crawford/Lou Williams, two great NBA players more suited to bench scoring?

    My bad, Lonzo put up 29 pts, 11 rebounds, 9 assists his second NBA game. He was one assist short of being the youngest player in NBA history with a triple double. Took him a few more weeks to break the record, Nov 1th. he had just won Summer League MVP and broke a couple of all time assist records.

    Buy low, sell high.
    Recency bias? You're hanging a summer league MVP and a couple good early performances 4 years ago out there and saying I have recency bias? At some point you have to repeat the performances otherwise it's not really recency bias, it's just outlier performances.

    White is on year 2 and already has a 2nd coach as well. He played with the worst coach in the history of the league and still showed a lot of potential at 19.

    Lou Williams is far more valuable than Lonzo.

    Buy Low, fine, throw Felicio and a 2nd at them. Otherwise, just sign him in FA.
    Don't sell low on Coby.

  3. #753
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    Think Ball had knee surgery his second year, have to take time to bounce back. We can see how far the Zach/Coby duo takes us, I'm not a believer it can work. I see Coby getting better, but a score first guard is a score first guard, and like I said, I believe in Zach more than Coby. Once again, the trade doesn't have to be straight up. We could quibble about equal value, but Lonzo is a better long term fit, plus he has potential as well.

    Lou Williams being more valuable is arguable as well, he plays no defense and gets few assists. At 23, he was doing 14 pts, 4 assist and 3 rebounds, shooting 34% from the 3. And playing no defense. I think Lonzo will beat that. And if you need a point guard, rather than a shooting guard, I'd easily take Lonzo over Williams.

    Yes it was years ago. But if he was capable of getting triple-doubles then why wouldn't he be now? He clearly has the ability, he's shown it. And experience usually makes you better, not worse. And playing next to a PG guard most of your career, what would White be doing if he was playing with Jrue? Or Bledsoe? Guarantee his assists numbers would be down.
    Last edited by infinity2152; 01-24-2021 at 01:02 AM.

  4. #754
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    Lonzo Ball definitely needs a culture change he definitely needs new scenery and pairing him up with LaVine in Chicago would actually be a great move

  5. #755
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    The balls suck

  6. #756
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    Iíve never understood the Lonzo love around here.

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by KG2TB View Post
    Iíve never understood the Lonzo love around here.
    I like him but not enough to trade anything of value for him. I think some are obbsessed with his passing and are not taking in the whole picture though. He is pretty bad finishing around the rim. And I dont watch enough of him but his shot selection was at least terrible... Though it might be better.

  8. #758
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    Man. Seeing Gordon Hayward ball out like he has this year makes me wonder. I thought the chance the bulls couldíve had if swapped him to Boston for Otto. That would look good right now. He got our team perfectly but his health was a huge concern. I knew he was done with Bos. Thatís Tatum and Brown show now period.


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  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanatic View Post
    Man. Seeing Gordon Hayward ball out like he has this year makes me wonder. I thought the chance the bulls couldíve had if swapped him to Boston for Otto. That would look good right now. He got our team perfectly but his health was a huge concern. I knew he was done with Bos. Thatís Tatum and Brown show now period.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think itís good we waited to go for anyone big. Gives our young guys a year to grow with ample PT

  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity2152 View Post
    Think Ball had knee surgery his second year, have to take time to bounce back. We can see how far the Zach/Coby duo takes us, I'm not a believer it can work. I see Coby getting better, but a score first guard is a score first guard, and like I said, I believe in Zach more than Coby. Once again, the trade doesn't have to be straight up. We could quibble about equal value, but Lonzo is a better long term fit, plus he has potential as well.

    Lou Williams being more valuable is arguable as well, he plays no defense and gets few assists. At 23, he was doing 14 pts, 4 assist and 3 rebounds, shooting 34% from the 3. And playing no defense. I think Lonzo will beat that. And if you need a point guard, rather than a shooting guard, I'd easily take Lonzo over Williams.

    Yes it was years ago. But if he was capable of getting triple-doubles then why wouldn't he be now? He clearly has the ability, he's shown it. And experience usually makes you better, not worse. And playing next to a PG guard most of your career, what would White be doing if he was playing with Jrue? Or Bledsoe? Guarantee his assists numbers would be down.
    I don't know how you can say he's a better long term fit when this is basically an evaluation period for the new front office.

    Yea, I won't stick by my Lou statement. Was thinking of him in the 20 ppg guy off the bench area, but that's not his whole career and kind of hard to weigh them against each other. I'd totally take Lonzo over him today on this team.

    Playing next to a point really shouldn't matter. He should be able to adjust. Fred Van Fleet came in as a point guard, and has kind of transitioned into more of a shooting guard role as his minutes increased because of Lowry. You could see huge growth with him from year 1-2-3-4.

    Lots of teams don't run their offense with the PG as the primary ball handler. Most of the NBA is trending towards positionless versatility and combo guards.

    If passing is Lonzo's only real offensive skill, you would expect to see some growth at least in that category. In the modern NBA, lots of teams role out 2 points.

    Marcus Smart shared the floor with Kemba/Kyrie.
    Herro/Dragic
    Luka/Brunson
    Can't think of more but yea. You're essentially aruing for him to be a Ben Simmons type guard, ball in hand, running a traditional type point guard led offense. Problem is, Lonzo can't finish at the rim contested or shoot.

    I'd like Lonzo as a FA, I'm sure Donovan could get the best out of him. Staggering him with Lavine/White would add some nice defensive value to the lineup and let White/Lavine play off the ball more. I'm just not for trading any meaningful asset for a FA who's value is really low right now. Let him play out the year in what you think is a bad situation and then sign him at a discount. Buy low.

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds637 View Post
    I don't know how you can say he's a better long term fit when this is basically an evaluation period for the new front office.

    Yea, I won't stick by my Lou statement. Was thinking of him in the 20 ppg guy off the bench area, but that's not his whole career and kind of hard to weigh them against each other. I'd totally take Lonzo over him today on this team.

    Playing next to a point really shouldn't matter. He should be able to adjust. Fred Van Fleet came in as a point guard, and has kind of transitioned into more of a shooting guard role as his minutes increased because of Lowry. You could see huge growth with him from year 1-2-3-4.

    Lots of teams don't run their offense with the PG as the primary ball handler. Most of the NBA is trending towards positionless versatility and combo guards.

    If passing is Lonzo's only real offensive skill, you would expect to see some growth at least in that category. In the modern NBA, lots of teams role out 2 points.

    Marcus Smart shared the floor with Kemba/Kyrie.
    Herro/Dragic
    Luka/Brunson
    Can't think of more but yea. You're essentially aruing for him to be a Ben Simmons type guard, ball in hand, running a traditional type point guard led offense. Problem is, Lonzo can't finish at the rim contested or shoot.

    I'd like Lonzo as a FA, I'm sure Donovan could get the best out of him. Staggering him with Lavine/White would add some nice defensive value to the lineup and let White/Lavine play off the ball more. I'm just not for trading any meaningful asset for a FA who's value is really low right now. Let him play out the year in what you think is a bad situation and then sign him at a discount. Buy low.
    Exactly, with his dipping numbers across the board, would the Pels even match him?

  12. #762
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    If the Bulls FO start believing they are a playoff contender right now, I would entertain a trade with the Pistons for Derrick Rose. You can add him to the bench and have an all veteran bench unit, or you could start him and move Coby to the bench, which is where Coby probably fits best at the moment.

    Bulls Get Rose
    Pistons Get Hutch/Kornet

    I just don't see Hutch as part of the future, so losing him for someone who contributes doesn't bother me. I don't really see much value in him at this point.

    Coby/Lavine/Pat/Lauri/Wendy
    Sato/Rose/Temple/Porter/Thad

    or

    Rose/Lavine/Pat/Lauri/Wendy
    Sato/Coby/Temple/Porter/Thad

    Either way, I'd like that team. Our bench would be one of the best in the league. Rose wouldn't need big minutes, so we would be able to keep him fresh.

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    If the Bulls FO start believing they are a playoff contender right now, I would entertain a trade with the Pistons for Derrick Rose. You can add him to the bench and have an all veteran bench unit, or you could start him and move Coby to the bench, which is where Coby probably fits best at the moment.

    Bulls Get Rose
    Pistons Get Hutch/Kornet

    I just don't see Hutch as part of the future, so losing him for someone who contributes doesn't bother me. I don't really see much value in him at this point.

    Coby/Lavine/Pat/Lauri/Wendy
    Sato/Rose/Temple/Porter/Thad

    or

    Rose/Lavine/Pat/Lauri/Wendy
    Sato/Coby/Temple/Porter/Thad

    Either way, I'd like that team. Our bench would be one of the best in the league. Rose wouldn't need big minutes, so we would be able to keep him fresh.
    Dude. I'd love Derrick back and if he came without attaching a first, get it. I agree with the thinking Rose would make us playoff relevant. Might sneak a 1st round win depending on the opponent if the team gels further.

    I doubt they'd sell him that cheap though. I really think he fits amazingly on Miami and most other contenders would think about dealing a 1st for him near the deadline. He's an expiring, valuable, pretty cheap, and Detroit is in a position to take a bad deal for picks because they suck forever.

    I'm with you on Hutch. He was already an old rookie, can't stay on the floor, and now can't break the lineup healthy. Times running out for him, another reason this deal probably isn't close to the value for Rose.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds637 View Post
    Dude. I'd love Derrick back and if he came without attaching a first, get it. I agree with the thinking Rose would make us playoff relevant. Might sneak a 1st round win depending on the opponent if the team gels further.

    I doubt they'd sell him that cheap though. I really think he fits amazingly on Miami and most other contenders would think about dealing a 1st for him near the deadline. He's an expiring, valuable, pretty cheap, and Detroit is in a position to take a bad deal for picks because they suck forever.

    I'm with you on Hutch. He was already an old rookie, can't stay on the floor, and now can't break the lineup healthy. Times running out for him, another reason this deal probably isn't close to the value for Rose.
    Only about half the league can even trade a 1st right now, and I doubt most would be willing to trade one for a rental. Detroit is terrible, so I could see them taking a young guy that they can actually give playing time too. Rose won't net them much IMO. I also don't see any team parting ways with a young guy with serious upside for Rose.

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    Only about half the league can even trade a 1st right now, and I doubt most would be willing to trade one for a rental. Detroit is terrible, so I could see them taking a young guy that they can actually give playing time too. Rose won't net them much IMO. I also don't see any team parting ways with a young guy with serious upside for Rose.
    You've seen how the league has worked and top teams deal 1sts lately. I'd bet basically every contender would put a better package together, even if they don't have a 1st to deal, to get Rose than that. Kornet/Hutch is almost nothing. Like when Kyle Korver was traded for a copier lol.

    Rose's numbers per 36 have been pretty amazing in Detroit. I'd be shocked if they don't move him but even moreso for a package like that.

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