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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Wow you're reaching. I'll use terminology you understand: sample size. I'm sure if we extended the Astros cheating scandal to equal the 5 years studied in the linked article, we'd see a greater number of players, teams, cities, etc. affected.
    Then give me one example that isn't complete nonsense.

    You've yet to do any mental gymnastics to prove that throwing at batters is as terrible as you made it out to be.
    Unlike you, I don't need to do mental gymnastics to make a point. Quite telling (and funny) that you consider that a bad thing.

    Chase Whitley is one example. There are others. And using his appearance at the beginning of the season is also a weak argument. The conclusions of the investigation revealed that the Astros used the cheating system more as the season progressed.
    No, Whitley is not a valid example. You've shown nothing to prove that he is. Mentioning his other appearance vs. the Astros that season was a simple, matter of fact exercise in thoroughness and was nowhere near the linchpin of my argument.

    Also, let's not pretend that his demotion didn't have an effect. His coaches could have made suggestions about his mechanics, could have changed the focus of his pitch distribution, etc. Heck he could have gotten in his own head (you know, because these are humans and not computers).

    If you want to extend what I said to "ending a career" then go right ahead. It might make you sound more intelligent or might make you believe you "got me", but in the end it's just false. Their cheating negatively affected players. It affected pitchers and their progression. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with that.
    I'll certainly agree that it hurt some pitchers ERA and gave numerous teams and players an unfair disadvantage. However, you've yet to show one valid example of a guy whose career was ended as a direct result of the Astros cheating.

    I'll say it again, please explain why you're against throwing at batters. Something other than saying its childish or unnecessary. It's a sport. It's entertainment. These are humans. They're angry. They had nothing to hang their hat on because the commissioner screwed up. Get over it. Watch them get plunked and move on.
    I'm absolutely not completely against throwing at batters and have never said I am. Try to actually pay attention what I'm saying before assigning some BS stance to me. However, I am definitely against headhunting and am definitely not going to pretend that Joe ****ing Kelly is some sort of hero.

    Don't bother replying to me unless you can actually present an argument that actually has some substance. Maybe work on getting over Altuve winning the '17 AL MVP and the Astros being the '17 champs while you're at it.

    PSD: where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Then give me one example that isn't complete nonsense.

    There you go again. Labeling something nonsense, but not providing any evidence. The best you came up with was mentioning Chase Whitley's first game against the astros. When I shot down that argument, you countered with "nonsense".

    Unlike you, I don't need to do mental gymnastics to make a point. Quite telling (and funny) that you consider that a bad thing.

    If "nonsense" is making a point......IDK. I guess your bar for making points is low.

    No, Whitley is not a valid example. You've shown nothing to prove that he is. Mentioning his other appearance vs. the Astros that season was a simple, matter of fact exercise in thoroughness and was nowhere near the linchpin of my argument.

    Thoroughness? You're posts have shown no thoroughness. Read this article for the evidence you asked so much for: https://theathletic.com/1433378/2019...ss-its-impact/

    I'll certainly agree that it hurt some pitchers ERA and gave numerous teams and players an unfair disadvantage. However, you've yet to show one valid example of a guy whose career was ended as a direct result of the Astros cheating.

    How can you say it affects ERA and creates a disadvantage, but then ask me to give a valid example of a pitcher. By the way, I've never used absolutes like "career ending".

    I'm absolutely not completely against throwing at batters and have never said I am. Try to actually pay attention what I'm saying before assigning some BS stance to me. However, I am definitely against headhunting and am definitely not going to pretend that Joe ****ing Kelly is some sort of hero.

    "assigning a BS stance". Like you claiming that I said pitchers careers ended. That's projection. However, I'm glad that you finally came out and made a definitive claim. You aren't against throwing at batters. We actually agree that headhunting is wrong (see my earlier posts where I state that).

    Don't bother replying to me unless you can actually present an argument that actually has some substance. Maybe work on getting over Altuve winning the '17 AL MVP and the Astros being the '17 champs while you're at it.
    Continuing to bring up the 17 MVP and world series is a poor attempt at a jab. I was able to get over 2001 and 2004. Say something of substance and back it up with evidence.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Continuing to bring up the 17 MVP and world series is a poor attempt at a jab. I was able to get over 2001 and 2004. Say something of substance and back it up with evidence.
    Whoops. I responded to specific sections but didn't separate them. Look at the gray quoted box above my previous post.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Instead of using energy to take jabs by questioning others' arguments, use that energy to come up with a real reason why pitchers shouldn't throw at batters other than it being "childish and/or unnecessary".
    Pretty sure there should be more explanation as to why throwing at batters should even be a thing.

    I get it ‘sends a message’ but you’re putting a guy on base and by you’re own words ‘plunk him and move on.” So if it’s something a player can be tough enough to just ‘move on from’ what message is really being sent?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Continuing to bring up the 17 MVP and world series is a poor attempt at a jab. I was able to get over 2001 and 2004. Say something of substance and back it up with evidence.
    First of all, please learn how to put a coherent post together in the near future.

    Like I've already stated, Whitley's first game vs. the Astros that season had little to nothing to do with the argument I was making. I have no idea why you keep focusing on that token part of my past post. Mediocre pitchers have poor games all the time. Obviously, having the opposing team cheating doesn't help this one bit. He got sent down after a not so good appearance and then came back up a short amount of time later.

    Was getting knocked around by the Astros a bump in the road for him? Absolutely. Was said "knocking around" solely due to the Astros cheating? Tough to say exactly what effect it had but it certainly did him no favors. Did it really have a major effect on his career? I see zero evidence of it.

    The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage. Get over it. If you want to over-dramatize what truly tragic side effects it had on people's individual lives, at least come with some evidence that is a lot more convincing than that Athletic article you linked to (or "hey, Forest Whitley"). Not to mention, that article actually seemed to hurt your over-dramatic POV.

    PSD: where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Okay but we didn't cheat as bad as the Astros and the whole Black Sox scandal was like what over a century ago? Whereas the Astros cheated to win a World Series...buzzers and a camera out in center or was it left field giving you guys practically every advantage? The 2017 title the Astros didn't even earn. Y'all will always be the Houston Asterisks in my opinion.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Then give me one example that isn't complete nonsense.

    Eh, I'm not on the same side of the argument as this other guy at all but i'll bite.

    Yu Darvish. He got roughed up by the Astros in the World Series. 1 of those games was at home. 1 was away. He couldn't figure out what was going on because the Astros seemed to know everything that was coming. Everyone presumed he was tipping his pitches. I'm sure it cost him money on the FA market but he still made a **** ton of money so whatever. But because of those disastrous games it was decided he needed to change his delivery so as not to tip his pitches going forward. This change in delivery led to him struggling and eventual injury. It's only the last calendar year he's gotten back to himself and is dominating again. I don't think there is any question the Astros had an effect on him.

    That said, never throw a ball at another players head, and the supposed macho attitude that thinks those types of things are ok is silly as hell.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Trying to devalue the sentiment of retaliation/retribution/justice by saying "we don't play in the sport" can easily be reversed: why is someone defending a person they don't know who plays a sport that you don't? Why do you care so much about their safety? While I agree that going for the head is wrong, I don't agree that we shouldn't allow the players to police themselves.

    And while we're at it. The Astros would have a lot more support if the players had received some sort of appropriate consequences. Manfred could have done his investigation differently, arrived at the same conclusions, and hand out sufficient consequences. He didn't. Players literally got away with cheating and affected the lives of others.

    Since you're concerned about the safety and well being of the players, what is your proposal for the pitchers who lost their shot at the big leagues because of a rough appearance against the Astros? They could have made a much better living and supported their families. That was affected. Where are the tears for those players?
    I'm quoting the above post because it was my original and I'm struggling to find the over dramatization. If what I wrote is drama to you, then real drama must have you curled up in a fetal position, rocking back and forth with a 1000 yard stare. Thus, the article supports my points (ya know, because it wasn't over dramatized).

    You also contradict yourself by writing "Tough to say exactly what effect it had but it certainly did him no favors. Did it really have a major effect on his career? I see zero evidence of it." AND then writing "The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage." Unless opposing teams had the same system, then they're at a disadvantage, which affects their numbers and careers. And I'll direct you to the word I keep using (see all my previous posts): affect. The Astros cheating had AN AFFECT on other players' chances to perform well. It decreased their chances of having a shot at the big leagues. It's weird how you admit the Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage, but are unwilling to admit that it negatively affected other players. Please don't over dramatize what I'm saying. If anything, listen to players talk about it. Many of them were outspoken about its negative affects on players, teams, the game, etc.

    The get-over-it mentality is the real argument here. Players obviously haven't gotten over it. I contend that they're justified in throwing at the Astros. But I'll reiterate, just in case you don't look at previous posts, I don't agree with headhunting.

    So far I've mentioned Chase Whitley, linked an article, directed you to watch/listen to players' responses about the Astros cheating. You keep mentioning evidence, but so far you've provided:

    - an opinion that if a player was sent down he didn't deserve to be in MLB anyway
    - "cry some more about Judge not winning the MVP"
    - Chase Whitley's first game against the Astros and the subsequent recalling after being sent down
    - Words and phrases like "nonsense" and "mental gymnastics"
    - "Excuse me while I play a sorrowful tune on the world's smallest violin"
    - Claims that I've "shown nothing" to prove my point

    Sounds like a lot of opinions and cheap insults. Where's the evidence?

    Interestingly you've also written:
    - "I'll certainly agree that it hurt some pitchers ERA and gave numerous teams and players an unfair disadvantage. "
    - "I'm absolutely not completely against throwing at batters and have never said I am"
    -" The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage."

    So the one question you've yet to answer are:
    1.) What are you arguing?

    I ask because it seemed like you were first arguing against throwing at batters. You then wrote that you're "absolutely not completely against throwing at batters". By the way, absolutely not completely leaves room for us to believe you're slightly against it. If so, provide an adult response instead of weak, internet troll insults (ie. "Excuse me while I play a sorrowful tune on the world's smallest violin"). Next, you turn my words ("what is your proposal for the pitchers who lost their shot at the big leagues because of a rough appearance against the Astros? They could have made a much better living and supported their families. That was affected.") into phrases like career-ending and claiming it was over dramatized. So it seemed as if you were arguing that the Astros cheating wasn't that big of deal, but at the same time wrote "The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage" and "I'll certainly agree that it hurt some pitchers ERA and gave numerous teams and players an unfair disadvantage".

    So again....what are you arguing? And if you're arguing anything, please provide some evidence.

  9. #69
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    I don't feel the need to repeat myself to someone who clearly either doesn't get it or just wants to argue.

    PSD: where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    I'm quoting the above post because it was my original and I'm struggling to find the over dramatization. If what I wrote is drama to you, then real drama must have you curled up in a fetal position, rocking back and forth with a 1000 yard stare. Thus, the article supports my points (ya know, because it wasn't over dramatized).

    You also contradict yourself by writing "Tough to say exactly what effect it had but it certainly did him no favors. Did it really have a major effect on his career? I see zero evidence of it." AND then writing "The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage." Unless opposing teams had the same system, then they're at a disadvantage, which affects their numbers and careers. And I'll direct you to the word I keep using (see all my previous posts): affect. The Astros cheating had AN AFFECT on other players' chances to perform well. It decreased their chances of having a shot at the big leagues. It's weird how you admit the Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage, but are unwilling to admit that it negatively affected other players. Please don't over dramatize what I'm saying. If anything, listen to players talk about it. Many of them were outspoken about its negative affects on players, teams, the game, etc.

    The get-over-it mentality is the real argument here. Players obviously haven't gotten over it. I contend that they're justified in throwing at the Astros. But I'll reiterate, just in case you don't look at previous posts, I don't agree with headhunting.

    So far I've mentioned Chase Whitley, linked an article, directed you to watch/listen to players' responses about the Astros cheating. You keep mentioning evidence, but so far you've provided:

    - an opinion that if a player was sent down he didn't deserve to be in MLB anyway
    - "cry some more about Judge not winning the MVP"
    - Chase Whitley's first game against the Astros and the subsequent recalling after being sent down
    - Words and phrases like "nonsense" and "mental gymnastics"
    - "Excuse me while I play a sorrowful tune on the world's smallest violin"
    - Claims that I've "shown nothing" to prove my point

    Sounds like a lot of opinions and cheap insults. Where's the evidence?

    Interestingly you've also written:
    - "I'll certainly agree that it hurt some pitchers ERA and gave numerous teams and players an unfair disadvantage. "
    - "I'm absolutely not completely against throwing at batters and have never said I am"
    -" The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage."

    So the one question you've yet to answer are:
    1.) What are you arguing?

    I ask because it seemed like you were first arguing against throwing at batters. You then wrote that you're "absolutely not completely against throwing at batters". By the way, absolutely not completely leaves room for us to believe you're slightly against it. If so, provide an adult response instead of weak, internet troll insults (ie. "Excuse me while I play a sorrowful tune on the world's smallest violin"). Next, you turn my words ("what is your proposal for the pitchers who lost their shot at the big leagues because of a rough appearance against the Astros? They could have made a much better living and supported their families. That was affected.") into phrases like career-ending and claiming it was over dramatized. So it seemed as if you were arguing that the Astros cheating wasn't that big of deal, but at the same time wrote "The Astros cheated and it gave them an advantage" and "I'll certainly agree that it hurt some pitchers ERA and gave numerous teams and players an unfair disadvantage".

    So again....what are you arguing? And if you're arguing anything, please provide some evidence.
    That's the best that can possibly be done. Folks are dug in. Bravo.

  11. #71
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    Lol

    PSD: where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Lol
    Dang. You almost had me. I thought you were seriously arguing. The "lol" gave it away. Well done.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Pretty sure there should be more explanation as to why throwing at batters should even be a thing.

    I get it ‘sends a message’ but you’re putting a guy on base and by you’re own words ‘plunk him and move on.” So if it’s something a player can be tough enough to just ‘move on from’ what message is really being sent?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    i have 0 issues with a pitcher throwing a 100 mph fastball at a batters knee/head/ribs as long as the batter can rush the mound with the bat without interference from anyone........ what is more dangerous... a 100 mph fastball thrown at a batters head without the batter having a clue that he is being thrown at to defend himself or a batter rushing the mound with a bat swinging the bat at close range with the pitcher having a chance to defend himself while he knows his team will step in etc?

    it pitchers want to act like tough ****s let them be tough ****s... leave them out on an island with the guy they threw at when they have to defend against a weapon/punches etc... then lets see how many of these ***** *** pitchers throws at guys.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    i have 0 issues with a pitcher throwing a 100 mph fastball at a batters knee/head/ribs as long as the batter can rush the mound with the bat without interference from anyone........ what is more dangerous... a 100 mph fastball thrown at a batters head without the batter having a clue that he is being thrown at to defend himself or a batter rushing the mound with a bat swinging the bat at close range with the pitcher having a chance to defend himself while he knows his team will step in etc?

    it pitchers want to act like tough ****s let them be tough ****s... leave them out on an island with the guy they threw at when they have to defend against a weapon/punches etc... then lets see how many of these ***** *** pitchers throws at guys.
    So, if a pitcher loses control of a pitch and the guy gets hit, quite likely in the helmet if it's his head and you perceive it as justifying a batter, with intent, swinging a tree branch at a pitcher without a helmet...because he can 'defend' himself (with a bare arm) and his teammates will help (after the hitter has had a couple swings before they can get there).

    Lojik
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    So, if a pitcher loses control of a pitch and the guy gets hit, quite likely in the helmet if it's his head and you perceive it as justifying a batter, with intent, swinging a tree branch at a pitcher without a helmet...because he can 'defend' himself (with a bare arm) and his teammates will help (after the hitter has had a couple swings before they can get there).

    Lojik
    just stop the stupidity and the making excuses for being alright with a guy ending another guys career... how often do we see a guy just lose control and a batter react and how often do we see a butt hurt *** pitcher from a butthurt *** team throw at a batter because they are ****ing bullies who know they can do it and have no ramifications? pitchers that throw at betters are similar to the school yard kid that throws a punch when a teacher shows up after talking mad ****... they do it because they know they wont get their *** kicked... let batters start rushing the mound every single time they think they are thrown at without any interference... forget the bat... let batters rush the mound like hockey and let a pitcher and a batter throw hands if a batter is thrown at with notice that if anyone gets involved they are suspended and then lets see how many of these dbag *** ***** pitchers throw at these batters.... i could probably count the pitchers that have the balls on 1 hand.
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 08-10-2020 at 10:20 AM.

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