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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOwolfOL View Post
    You keep saying he walked him because Ervin swung at ball 4 but if we are to discredit a pitcher in this scenario then there would be a lot of Ks that we should look at sideways. Like every time a pitcher buries a slider in the dirt and gets a chase on 3-2 we should discredit the pitcher? I don't agree. Jeffress threw a pitch with some movement that looked like a possible strike at the time to Ervin and got him to chase. Credit to the pitcher IMO.
    That pitch wasn't even in the ballpark. How many times do you think he gets a K there? Most guys take that pitch and walk. He got lucky Ervin swung.

    Yes, there are times a pitcher earns a strikeout on a bad pitch. When you setup a guy for a ball in the dirt. Or you work your way through to get him to chase high. Jeffress misses his target by a significant amount. He didnt mean to throw that there. He did not set him up. It wasn't even supposed to be high. Contreras is ready for a pitch at the knees.. Flat out, he walked Ervin, Ervin refused it. Its a stirkeout but not all K's are created equal. In a large sample size over a season they dont matter. If you want to replace Kimbrel because "Jeffress got the job done" with 2 PAs they most certainly do.

    If it was a 1-2 count and Jeffress wanted to throw a high fastball and Ervin chased it? Beautiful. Its a completely different story when Jeffress has him 3-2 and misses high and in and Ervin just tomahawk hacks at it. Jeffress got lucky there. Plain as day. Its the kind of strikeout that people throw a frenzy on this board about. You know damn well if that was Bryant swinging at that, no one would be like "yeah, credit to the pitcher there. Solid pitch". And with good reason. That is an infuriating swing by Ervin who utterly bailed out Jeffress.

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    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-28-2020 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I'd argue it isn't "probably" but "definitely".

    This is the worst Cub bullpen pre-2015. And I don't think it's close.
    I'm confused why Marquez and Carraway are not in the mix. I'd say that they are probably the two best pen arms in the system.

  3. #483
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    Everyone is dogpiling Kimbrel for sucking last year, but no one is bothering to recall that Jeffress was also mediocre himself. It'd be one thing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he was coming off his 2018 season, but he's not. And it's not like last season was all that unusual of a season for him.

    Maybe it's similar to my Tepera problem. Following Kimbrel's outing, anyone would've looked good... Except Dan Winkler.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dfan25 View Post
    With this I can agree

    This bullpen is so awful that I really donít know what they can do


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    The two best arms in the system are not even on the team. They can start there.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    I'm confused why Marquez and Carraway are not in the mix. I'd say that they are probably the two best pen arms in the system.
    Depends on what you mean by calling Marquez a pen arm. He'd be a very useful addition this year IN the bullpen. Because the Cubs have need. Wainwright him in the MLB. Then stretch him out. Hes still quite viable as a SP arm.

    And easily theyre the two best options in the system. Theyre LHP who throw 100 mph with a great secondary pitch.

    They should probably be being used. For sure. If you're gonna roll the dice on garbage like Sadler then roll the dice on talent like these 2.

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  6. #486
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    Bullpen final numbers last night were incredible

    4 IP, 7 runs, 6 hits, 8 walks, 2 hit by pitch.

    I am at a loss for how many guys have been assembled who cant throw strikes. And its not like they were just missing with pitches, they were way off. Not sure what the solution is but something needs to be done.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    That pitch wasn't even in the ballpark. How many times do you think he gets a K there?

    Most guys take that pitch and walk. He got lucky Ervin swung.

    Yes, there are times a pitcher earns a strikeout on a bad pitch. When you setup a guy for a ball in the dirt. Or you work your way through to get him to chase high.

    Jeffress misses his target by a significant amount. He didnt mean to throw that there. He did not set him up. Flat out, he walked Ervin, Ervin refused it. Its a stirkeout but not all K's are created equal. In a large sample size over a season they dont matter. If you want to replace Kimbrel because "Jeffress got the job done" with 2 PAs they most certainly do.

    Jeffress got lucky there. Plain as day.

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    Kimbrel has been abysmal as a Cub. Our closer should probably be Wick, if the team is gonna continue to be scared of ruining their prospects that have potential to be top 5 RPs for us.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOwolfOL View Post
    Kimbrel has been abysmal as a Cub. Our closer should probably be Wick, if the team is gonna continue to be scared of ruining their prospects that have potential to be top 5 RPs for us.
    I'm not so sure about Wick. We've got a very small sample size on him. He's pitched well, but the question of "how well" he's pitched is questionable. He's not capable of never giving up a HR like he is, his LOB% is going to drop...and he does walk guys. He was sitting 4.32 BB/9 last year. So while it was a walk lower than Kimbrel, we're still at not good levels of walks.

    At this point, I don't think the Cubs have any choice but to let Kimbrel close for a little bit longer. His stuff is still among the best, he has to figure out how to get it to go where he needs it. For the Cubs and for Kimbrel the best thing is to hope last night was rust, that he'll come back much better the next game, and go from there.

    He's had basically the two worst starts to years anyone could have back to back in terms of prep. I'm hoping some of this can be attributed there.

  9. #489
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    I guess my biggest thing with Kimbrel is he has never really done anything as a cub to earn that closer spot. He has it because of his reputation, the potential of his stuff, and the money he's being paid. I get that there really isn't anybody else currently on the team that's likely to be a lockdown closer and Kimbrel in theory could still be. But i've never been comfortable with him there and he's yet to prove himself worthy. I also wonder if he might be more likely to work himself out of his problems in a lower leverage role. He's still got the arsenal to be a good pitcher. That i can agree with.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sofnr View Post
    I guess my biggest thing with Kimbrel is he has never really done anything as a cub to earn that closer spot. He has it because of his reputation, the potential of his stuff, and the money he's being paid. I get that there really isn't anybody else currently on the team that's likely to be a lockdown closer and Kimbrel in theory could still be. But i've never been comfortable with him there and he's yet to prove himself worthy. I also wonder if he might be more likely to work himself out of his problems in a lower leverage role. He's still got the arsenal to be a good pitcher. That i can agree with.
    If at any point he had any sort of reliable alternate, I'm sure he'd be moved. Sadly, as of today, the closest it Rowan Wick, who's had walk issues and has barely 40 IP in his MLB career. I think Wick could be that, but I also know he presents a major risk, too, here, considering things like; he can't not give up a HR forever.

    As long as the BP looks like it does right now, Kimbrel's going to get every opportunity. Out of both "you have good stuff" and "there's no one else".

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sofnr View Post
    I guess my biggest thing with Kimbrel is he has never really done anything as a cub to earn that closer spot. He has it because of his reputation, the potential of his stuff, and the money he's being paid. I get that there really isn't anybody else currently on the team that's likely to be a lockdown closer and Kimbrel in theory could still be. But i've never been comfortable with him there and he's yet to prove himself worthy. I also wonder if he might be more likely to work himself out of his problems in a lower leverage role. He's still got the arsenal to be a good pitcher. That i can agree with.
    Again, just like with Yu Darvish last year, you just have to hope he puts it together. He's not far removed from being a really great pitcher. His sample size as a Cub isn't meaningful enough to disregard his incredible career track record just yet. The fact the Cubs have literally no one else makes waiting him out our only choice.

    No, it shouldn't fill anyone with optimism. Yes, it's a huge concern. The Cubs should definitely act fast to try and make the rest of the pen around him stronger.

  12. #492
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    You have to act with 2.7x the sense of urgency this year. Leashes need to be shortened accordingly IMO.

    Last ill say on it. The options available suck. Although I do like Wick, even as I admit he has warts of his own.

  13. #493
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    Do people remember many of us going on and on and on this winter about how we needed to strengthen the bullpen? Seems COVID erased people's memories about how big a problem the bullpen was going to be this year.

    Oddly enough, this short season may help us if some of these lotto tickets can put it together for a bit. I would be extremely concerned about this bullpen over 162 innings.

    Kimbrel... I think you need to give him a couple more shots. Yes he was poor last season as well, but this was his first outing of the year.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealTI View Post
    Do people remember many of us going on and on and on this winter about how we needed to strengthen the bullpen? Seems COVID erased people's memories about how big a problem the bullpen was going to be this year.

    Oddly enough, this short season may help us if some of these lotto tickets can put it together for a bit. I would be extremely concerned about this bullpen over 162 innings.

    Kimbrel... I think you need to give him a couple more shots. Yes he was poor last season as well, but this was his first outing of the year.
    I don't think anybody forgets. I don't think anyone in here was ever really arguing against the need to strengthen the bullpen. It was frustrating as hell for sure. The problem is the Ricketts said here's 0 dollars, see what you can do. This is the result. Any help at this point is probably coming from the system. Maybe if you still need help(very likely) and you are convinced the season will actually finish you might make a trade at the deadline.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sofnr View Post
    I don't think anybody forgets. I don't think anyone in here was ever really arguing against the need to strengthen the bullpen. It was frustrating as hell for sure. The problem is the Ricketts said here's 0 dollars, see what you can do. This is the result. Any help at this point is probably coming from the system. Maybe if you still need help(very likely) and you are convinced the season will actually finish you might make a trade at the deadline.
    Oooooooh yes they were. "We have plenty of interesting arms in AAA. The bullpen is just a crapshoot anyway." Plenty of those takes going on all off-season.

    I should emphasize I'm not saying you were one of those making said takes.

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