Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
I'll keep saying it every time. Just because someone played on a great team does not diminish their greatness. If we put rookie Michael Jordan on the Warriors with Curry-Klay-Draymond-KD then does that mean MJ wouldn't have been the GOAT? Serious question.



Doesn't having a rim protector also help good perimeter defenders?



He led the league in PER and win shares and was the best player on the best team. He was their top scorer, rebounder, and rim protector. What was he missing? What he didn't he do that you wanted him to do to earn it as much as others?



I'd be very interested to hear who you would have put at #10. Bill Russell and D-Wade were the next two in votes at the time. I would take Moses over both of them to win 1 game.

1. Bobby Jones is an all time great defender period. Play by play data only goes back to '97, however Harvey Pollack manually tracked play by play data for the Sixers are far back as the 70s and Bobby Jones was consistently the defensive engine of those Sixer teams. PER and Win Shares are some of the worst metrics around, and don't account for defense in any sort of meaningful way. They're literally just a cocktail of box score numbers. (This is part of a larger problem with current historical player evaluation, where fans will check a player's accolades, quickly check whatever "advanced" stats bball-reference spits out, and draw their conclusions from there, but I digress).

2. There's generally limited evidence that Moses was actually an MVP level impact player, however it's generally well known that late 70s/early 80s NBA was a low point talent wise. Moses joined a squad that was in the finals two seasons before, and after adding Moses rose from a 56 win pace to a 60 win pace, which is good, but not all time good. And going back to Pollack's play by play data, we can see that from '83-'85 Moses's actual on the court impact hovers around All NBA level, as opposed to MVP level or actual best player in the league level. I'd love for you to break down in detail to me how you're able to isolate Moses's "greatness" or at least, on the floor impact on that superb 83 Sixers team relative to his teammates, beyond sorting by whatever basketball reference metrics you can find. And then after making this distinction, how you're able to contextualize his on the court impact versus other all time greats vying for that 10 to 12 position, especially in a modern era context. Are you just looking at per game stats? How are you accounting for his defense not scaling well? What about his lack of passing? How is that accounted for?

3. In regards to my top 20 peaks, it looks something like this:


MJ
LBJ
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem
KG
Wilt
Steph
Duncan
Russell

Bird
Robinson
Magic
Walton
West
Oscar
Wade
Kobe
Durant
Dirk/Nash/CP3