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View Poll Results: Who is the G.O.A.T at their absolute peak?

Voters
10. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bill Russell

    4 40.00%
  • Dwyane Wade

    1 10.00%
  • Kobe Bryant

    1 10.00%
  • Kevin Durant

    1 10.00%
  • Stephen Curry

    1 10.00%
  • Kevin Garnett

    0 0%
  • Julius Erving

    0 0%
  • Bill Walton

    0 0%
  • Oscar Robertson

    0 0%
  • Elgin Baylor

    0 0%
  • Jerry West

    0 0%
  • Charles Barkley

    0 0%
  • Dirk Nowitzki

    0 0%
  • Karl Malone

    0 0%
  • David Robinson

    0 0%
  • James Harden

    0 0%
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo

    1 10.00%
  • Isiah Thomas

    0 0%
  • Kawhi Leonard

    0 0%
  • Scottie Pippen

    0 0%
  • Rick Barry

    1 10.00%
  • John Havlicek

    0 0%
  • Tracy McGrady

    0 0%
  • Allen Iverson

    0 0%
  • Steve Nash

    0 0%
  • Chris Paul

    0 0%
  • John Stockton

    0 0%
  • Patrick Ewing

    0 0%
  • Willis Reed

    0 0%
  • Russell Westbrook

    0 0%
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 42 of 42
  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Think of it this way, given how easy it is to find Offense historically, especially in a game geared for guards like today is, wouldn't having by far the best complimentary defender, distributer, rebounder be a competitive advantage in a league where rim running is basically all you require from a Center to build a historic offense? KG couldn't defend at C quite the same way but I suppose his floor stretching (out to midrange) might be worth it as a complimentary piece given his 2-way ability but.......
    Right so this logic is totally sound. But the problem is I don't want to have to overcompensate for Russell by drafting like Dominique Wilkins in the next round. I'd rather have Curry and draft Zo for example. Now that's not a perfect comparison but you get my drift. I don't have to sacrifice offense and I can still get my elite rim protecting. Nique is good but nobody at that level is giving you offensively what Curry does.


    If we're ignoring prior era advantages, what do we do with swings like Doc and Worthy that had higher peaks than most but neither could stretch the floor like today and unless they are the fulcrom of your offense, it would be easier to maximize your main guys with 3-D types.
    We downgrade them. They are not as good in today's game.

    Both would have to play small ball 4, which isn't a problem but you see what Im getting at? Like a team of Magic, MJ, Doc, Worthy and Shaq wouldn't shoot at all from the outside. Is that better than inferior peak players built to maximize the stars? I think I took your concept too literally and just choosing the best to build around? IDK but it sounds like you like KG's ability to play today more than actually being the better player, era be damned, KG aint matching the likes of Wilt in that era the way Russ did.
    But the problem with this example of Magic / MJ / Doc / Worthy / Shaq is that the talent level is so far above the competition it wouldn't matter if they couldn't shoot 3's. They would still dominate.


    On the perfect team everyone would get 20% of the touches, realistically those situations never exist even in the most egalitarian of offenses. You need guys who dont look to create but to compliment the team structure, Russell best put it this way(roundabout)," if you add up all the stats that go into basketball, that makes up like 10% of whats going on, on the floor. What about the other 90%?". You aint running endless post sets, even a guy like Shaq would become more of a rim runner and require a guy like Horry as his primary 4-man more. Russ would put up better offensive numbers today simply as a roll man. Lots of inferior bigs have posted sick offensive efficiency in perfect offenses, thinking of guys like Carl Landry, Ryan Hollins in Dallas when they had an insane offense before tanking it for Rondo. But yes, you wouldn't be drafting Russ for his offense.
    For my personally like reading this post makes me convinced I'm right. Why on earth is Ryan Hollins being brought up in a thread about the greatest players of all-time? That is crazy bro. Do I think Bill Russell could be efficient like RYAN HOLLINS? Sure dude. I do. That's great. No that doesn't convince me he's the 11th best player of all-time.


    Prolly true, but like Draymond, he could punish offense on switches and like Gobert, would draw attention on the roll to open up things on the perimeter. A guy like Hakeem/Shaq would require more touches and would take away from other offensive players. It really depends on the type of team you want to build, you like 2-way guys with no weaknesses vs dominant players in their roles.
    Draymond on offense and Gobert on defense is a very reasonable comparison. Although are we really sure he could hit 3's like Draymond? He was in the mid 50's in FT percentage. Draymond shoots about 20% better from the free throw line. There is no statistical evidence that supports Russell would ever stretch the floor at all.

    I wouldn't call KG a leader tbh, definitely not in the Duncan/Russ mold that really brings teammates together.
    Based on his tenure in Minny, maybe I would agree but the Ubuntu Celtics he was definitely the captain of that team and they were special.

    2010 but I'd have to check some numbers. I would say 2004 Kobe would dominate a spread out, spam pnr offense to a greater degree because he was just burly and played more bully ball that year but in that era he wore down quickly. Which makes me wonder, given the parameters of your peak seasons, does it even matter how the post season goes down if we knew Kobe was injured by then? Like that Kobe was the best Kobe but he was hurt come post season, 2001 wasn't as polished but he had the best playoff run given he was less of a defensive focus and the competition wasn't quite as strong. Which Kobe is more peak Kobe to you, 01 or 04?

    I just think his mastery of the game by 10 was on a different level. 2006 Kobe reminds me of high scoring Wilt, ironically enough, both had a playoff series where their coach wanted them to be more of a decoy against a superior team after a season full of playing an entirely different way.
    I lean 01 personally but 05-06 and 09 are on the table too. That's why for Kobe I just look more at his skill set and focus less with picking a specific statistical season.

    He could effectively switch, you couldn't exploit him defensively. But you're prolly right about the value of defensive bigs being minimized today, its just look at Gobert. He has that old school level of impact, peak Gasol brothers could too, Russ makes them all look smaller on that end. Thats a pretty big advantage on a team level. Also, transcendant talents kind of alter the shape of the league. Like if this league had peak MJ and Shaq, doesn't some of this single rim protecting, light of build big have to get some help containing the greatest paint attackers? Do we see a revival of strong side overloads, bringing Thibs back to his peak form?

    How much do we take away from bigs? D-Rob and KG as secondary guys prolly boosts them past a guy like Moses today, who wasn't as much of a defender and whos offensive rebounding would be more discouraged vs getting back in transition (tho he would still be the best at getting his own misses).
    Do you think we will ever see a Shaq again?

    I would be open to Drob or KG going here over Russell as well.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Do you really believe he would have that level of impact if he was on defense playing against teams like the Warriors and Rockets who would just be bombing 3's over his head for 4 quarters?
    That's an argument you can make for any of the C's taken ahead of him, difference is Russell would be perhaps the C whose defense transfers most to the modern game. He was an Olympic level athlete who was extremely quick laterally and was probably the best help defensive C ever. He would destroy so many PnR actions with his ability to show, sag, or contest.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    That's an argument you can make for any of the C's taken ahead of him, difference is Russell would be perhaps the C whose defense transfers most to the modern game. He was an Olympic level athlete who was extremely quick laterally and was probably the best help defensive C ever. He would destroy so many PnR actions with his ability to show, sag, or contest.
    No. I love you Valade but I call BS. I'm not arguing AGAINST Russ bc of his defense. I'm arguing against Russ because of his offense. I believe that Russell really did dictate an obscene amount of the game with his defense. My primary argument is that the percentage of players he would impact on defense is significantly decreased in the modern game. Do you disagree?


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    No. I love you Valade but I call BS. I'm not arguing AGAINST Russ bc of his defense. I'm arguing against Russ because of his offense. I believe that Russell really did dictate an obscene amount of the game with his defense. My primary argument is that the percentage of players he would impact on defense is significantly decreased in the modern game. Do you disagree?
    It's less about the % of players he would impact and more about the % of plays. Rudy Gobert actually changes the types of shots offenses take. And Russell is far more talented defensively than Gobert.

    I also think most top C's who are overly reliant on post offense would see their offensive value go down as well.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    See I think this glosses over the massive difference in value that KG would bring offensively over Russell. KG can space the floor, KG can post, KG can shoot, KG can create off the dribble.



    Would you have voted differently?

    I

    I think it's a lot easier to find players to put with Durant / Garnett than it would be with Russell. Your offense still needs to be completely build around those 4 remaining guys working with Russell.



    I think to me it comes down to how much you value offensive impact vs. defensive impact. My opinion is probably different from others because I hold two opinions:

    #1.) Offense is more important
    #2.) Defensive big men are not as important in 2020 as they were in 1960.

    I also disagree very much with statements like "Curry needs Dray." So many guys could be Draymond Green on offense. He is not special there. I would take Curry over Russell in a heartbeat for his offensive impact. Give me one of the most efficient 30 point per game seasons who stretched defenses out 5 feet passed the 3pt line.
    Well I am judging each of their offensive impact in their era and compared to peers. At the time Russell and his abilities were more meaningful than they would be today but people also voted Shaq right away and the rule changes hurt his game imo which wasn't covered... Seems odd to me to start looking at things like this now when we have been picking years of guys and comparing to their competition then (like Moses vs 35 Kareem) to now start thinking about it only in today's terms. I actually think that is the biggest difference we have apparently in our rankings but the way you are looking at that makes a massive difference (and I feel most of the poll has been judging guys in their eras). I probably would have been voting differently throughout then if it was all based on today's more open/3 centric game with defense much more versatile in their approaches.

    I think you need one great offensive player with any of them and a few role players. KG won with Pierce/Ray and KD won with Curry/Klay/Green but not Westy/Harden/Ibaka/Stevens (harden or stevens not both) because it even needs to be the right mix of help on top of another star. All of these guys excel with a lot of offensive talent moreso than being that main creator, that's why the way Russell impacts the game in other areas would be greater to me. I might change my answer to Curry though if we are solely saying based on todays rules/way of play which player you choose.

    I agree with 1 and maybe 2 actually I am not sure tbh but as I have said I was basing this on their prime in their era's. I would add 3 point shot is more valuable and a couple others. Dray is kinda special actually because of his handling/playmaking so when teams went 3v4 he is the one who broke it down when needed but having KD to just take advantage and score himself is obviously better still so there are levels. I agree on Curry and actually hadn't seen this when I said it, if it's all about just inserting them in todays game it gives Curry more edge to me.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 07-21-2020 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    No. I love you Valade but I call BS. I'm not arguing AGAINST Russ bc of his defense. I'm arguing against Russ because of his offense. I believe that Russell really did dictate an obscene amount of the game with his defense. My primary argument is that the percentage of players he would impact on defense is significantly decreased in the modern game. Do you disagree?
    Today's game/rules would hurt the offensive centers relying on post and shooting ability/finesse and ability to switch are more important while defense/rebounding also still matter a lot. Shaq for example more post/strength based would be more limited imo in this open game and may be more exposed on the other end.

    Russell could still impact the game in almost all of the same ways, even if not quite to the extent it was at the time elite defensive C's still exist today with major impact, rebounding still important and his ability to process/create himself from the elbow still has some value in running a system offense actually. Where are all the elite post players now though? The game has shifted from that style and they aren't as valuable with other aspects (shooting, ability to switch on D for example) mattering more.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 07-21-2020 at 10:24 PM.

  7. #37
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    Peak Admiral is better than Peak Durant/Steph/Kobe/Wade/Tmac...this ish is crazy. Look at the numbers. Peak Admiral is above these mofos. Itís so easy to see. Peak Admiral had Peak Dream on the 2nd team All nba.

  8. #38
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    Whatís the score at? I canít even see the votes on mobile.


    Screw it. Iíll throw you a bone, IKH. Give me The Admiral.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Alright you win, KG is better than Russell. Russell can go next.
    When did I even mention that I have a take between these two?

  10. #40
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    OFFICIAL G.O.A.T Peak Rankings - #11

    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    When did I even mention that I have a take between these two?
    He said explain Russell over kg. You said honestly you've been waiting for that argument since 2 etc.


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  11. #41
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    Are people really voting for KG?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  12. #42
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    OFFICIAL G.O.A.T Peak Rankings - #11

    Does anyone really think KG in Minn was more impactful then KL last year? What about Embiid or Harden?

    KL, Walton, Kobe all good picks here. We never saw Russel play but based on accolades and the opinion of his peers it should be him. If we canít accept that Iím not sure but it might be KL


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

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