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  1. #136
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    I’d say yes since I think Wade was the best in the league at some point in time. Probably during the 2006 finals, and then maybe at some other points in time during 2006-2009. He may have also been the best player in the league for a particular year, but that’s not how I interpreted the question, which asks if he was ever the best.

    To me, Shaq became the best in the NBA after Jordan retired, and for about 5 years thereafter, and then you could make a case for Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, McGrady, and then Wade, until it was clear LeBron became the best.

    My opinion is that at various points in time, each of those players appeared to be the best in the league. I think being the best in the league can be fleeting, and for the years after Jordan retired and after Shaq’s prime, and before LeBron became the best, there was a point in time where you could have reasonably considered any of several guys to be the best. These guys were all so great, but they were close enough to each other that at different moments in time, one guy’s great play or substandard play or favorable or unfavorable circumstances was enough to shift my opinion.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    numbers
    Numbers are not facts. They are just numbers. If you aren't able to read them, it's worth nothing. And almost no one has on PSD has shown any real knowledge of how to apply these numbers as facts, yet people seem to isolate their view on something they do not comprehend. Probably because it's easier than to admit that they do not comprehend the sport itself.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Numbers are not facts. They are just numbers. If you aren't able to read them, it's worth nothing. And almost no one has on PSD has shown any real knowledge of how to apply these numbers as facts, yet people seem to isolate their view on something they do not comprehend. Probably because it's easier than to admit that they do not comprehend the sport itself.
    Yep, spot on here. It's simply easier to point to a number and say that those numbers support your position than to get into the skill of the players and discuss how said skills impact the game, etc.

  4. #139
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  5. #140
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    Except that neither of you have provided any sort of objective barometer to at the very least qualify what you think you're seeing. Just dismissing others, cant blame these guys for at least trying to back up their opinions, what you guys are complaining about generally leave some sort of statistical residue if you catch my meaning. Yall havent given any sort of reasoning as to why your statistical claims (like Iverson having a case as the best in that regard) have any validity. So we have ourselves a good ol Mexican standoff.







    That said, heres how I view Wade's prime with a full set of retrospective goggles



    2004: Bron won ROY but I always said it should have gone to Melo, my simplistic stance then was "well, he had better stats (he does, if ever so slightly) and his team won enough to make the playoffs in the mighty West", no small task but looking back now, this was prolly Wade's award if we actually gave a **** about impacting a team game beyond individual statistics. Melo wasn't even his teams best player in this regard, by production he was prolly 3rd of 4th best overall. Wade wasn't considered his teams best player (Lamar Odom was) but I think he drove his teams winning(once they recovered from 0-7), it became clear come playoffs who the teams best player was (Wade averaged 20-4-6 against one of the games best defenses). It could go to anyone here but I feel like Bron was basically playing the role of Year-1 Tyreke Evans, while Wade and Melo were playing more of a winning brand of basketball.

    PS the year Reke won, it should have gone to either Curry or Harden for actually displaying elite potential and efficient play that were harbingers of things to come. Bron was far younger than Wade, its only natural big brother was the actual better player.


    2005: This is where narrative really runs the story, Kobe is already an accomplished 3x champion but this year represents the challenge that drove him to driving Shaq out of LA(or at least not begging to have him back if that offends you), so what does he do this year? Hes given 2 of the best players from the Heat team that had pushed the 60 Win Pacers to the limit. He misses the playoffs, produces career lows in efficiency (we saw these same inefficiencies in his time without Shaq during the early years btw), bare in mind these are individual numbers that only recovered upon an in-season shift back to the triangle.

    For the first section of the year Kobe was trying to play that role that Bron and Wade were soon to perfect, in the first 43 games Kobe averaged 6.6Assist (career highs) and 4.4 turnovers (also career highs). People will blame injuries but Kobe has had various injuries throughout his career, never was it such a crux for his own personal level of play, that shows you how bad he played this year. Argue what you want about perception at the time, a 2nd year player wont get that kind of love even if he were the superior player simply because hes not as accomplished.

    But the Truth is, Wade in 05 was closing out the Wizards without Shaq, punishing the same Pistons team that had humiliated Kobe mentally (albeit under different rules) and would've made the Finals if not for he and Shaq suffering untimely injuries. Superior production, superior 2-way impact, superior winning. Kobe's only argument is that Wade has Shaq but he wasn't posting these numbers with Shaq, outside of that year when he was 220 lbs (something he outright avoided the rest of his prime) and that magical 2001 playoff run.
    Still tho, this is peak Duncan still. Hes the best easily


    2006: ............................ gets really interesting but where I contradict myself abit. Duncan was the best player, he just had a down RS because he battled plantar fasciitis all year, by the end of the playoffs he was back to dropping huge numbers. Wade's argument beyond the chip, hes basically there with everyone else statistically, the ones hes below hes better than defensively, he sports the best RAPM in the game too. I got Duncan still but Dirk, Kobe, Wade, KG and Bron have an argument.


    The argument thereafter becomes the inverted of Kobe's in how he carries trash rosters. Its an interesting comp to see how these 2 played in various roles.





    2005:
    2006:

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Why dont all players number / efficiency go up when playing with other superstars? I see everybody now starting to fling around inflation in a negative tone. Numbers says alot but if you are going to start arguing against the numbers your going to stray away from reality. This is not that i agree with Wade was better. But his fg% reflects in the type of shots he took when he took them. Wade was never a great shooter but a great shot maker. If you look at his carrer shot chart one will see wade made a living at the rim. This is clearly indicated in his numbers. You can tell exactly what kind of player Wade was just by looking at numbers but you cant just focus on 1 thing like fg%. The further he moved away from the basket the lower is % dropped the more he delined physically the more his % dropped. Give prime wade shooters his fg% and assist numbers would likely go up not necessarily stars.
    So tell me why 2011 Wade is not his Goat season? I want to hear why 2011 Wade was not his best. I want to hear/see you say it. I’m going to ask until you answer it. Why is 2011 Wade not his best season? Wade had his 2nd and 3rd most scoring playoff series of all time in 2011.

    I know why you will never mention 2011 but I’m going to press until I hear you/see you post it. Here is a fun fact. Wades 2011 season was not his best FG% season ever. Every season with LeBron it went up. So 2012 Wade was his best and 2013 was even better. Hence the “2011 was Wade best efficient season “prior” season of all time”. Yet we called him washed. Lebron effect?

    Don’t follow box scores. Bigmoves03 knows his basketball. Listen and don’t just cheer on trolls. It’s embarrassing.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    So tell me why 2011 Wade is not his Goat season? I want to hear why 2011 Wade was not his best. I want to hear/see you say it. I’m going to ask until you answer it. Why is 2011 Wade not his best season? Wade had his 2nd and 3rd most scoring playoff series of all time in 2011.

    I know why you will never mention 2011 but I’m going to press until I hear you/see you post it. Here is a fun fact. Wades 2011 season was not his best FG% season ever. Every season with LeBron it went up. So 2012 Wade was his best and 2013 was even better. Hence the “2011 was Wade best efficient season “prior” season of all time”. Yet we called him washed. Lebron effect?

    Don’t follow box scores. Bigmoves03 knows his basketball. Listen and don’t just cheer on trolls. It’s embarrassing.
    All ready said you cannot go by just fg% you have to cross refrence Data and do that for a number of players and takes a lot of time. But just from a quick glance Wade seem to have a number of good seasons and it dispay a consistent pattern but if i had to pick his best i would say 2008-2009. Season 05 06 06 07 seem pretty good to and that could be his physical peak. 2011 is also a solid season seem to be the same player from 2008-2011 then took a turn.

    This is just going on basic stats alone but it have way more.
    Last edited by ldawg; 07-12-2020 at 08:47 AM.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post

    2005: This is where narrative really runs the story, Kobe is already an accomplished 3x champion but this year represents the challenge that drove him to driving Shaq out of LA(or at least not begging to have him back if that offends you), so what does he do this year? Hes given 2 of the best players from the Heat team that had pushed the 60 Win Pacers to the limit. He misses the playoffs, produces career lows in efficiency (we saw these same inefficiencies in his time without Shaq during the early years btw), bare in mind these are individual numbers that only recovered upon an in-season shift back to the triangle.

    For the first section of the year Kobe was trying to play that role that Bron and Wade were soon to perfect, in the first 43 games Kobe averaged 6.6Assist (career highs) and 4.4 turnovers (also career highs). People will blame injuries but Kobe has had various injuries throughout his career, never was it such a crux for his own personal level of play, that shows you how bad he played this year. Argue what you want about perception at the time, a 2nd year player wont get that kind of love even if he were the superior player simply because hes not as accomplished.

    But the Truth is, Wade in 05 was closing out the Wizards without Shaq, punishing the same Pistons team that had humiliated Kobe mentally (albeit under different rules) and would've made the Finals if not for he and Shaq suffering untimely injuries. Superior production, superior 2-way impact, superior winning. Kobe's only argument is that Wade has Shaq but he wasn't posting these numbers with Shaq, outside of that year when he was 220 lbs (something he outright avoided the rest of his prime) and that magical 2001 playoff run.
    Still tho, this is peak Duncan still. Hes the best easily :
    I thought it was still Shaq most of that year but arguable with Duncan, until Shaq got injured and Duncan looked to be the best by the playoffs.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonFSU View Post
    I thought it was still Shaq most of that year but arguable with Duncan, until Shaq got injured and Duncan looked to be the best by the playoffs.
    Im assuming we're talking about 05 because by 06 Shaq wasn't in the same class outside of the attention he still drew. In 05 Shaq had a bounce back year as he continued to shed the weight but he was still past his peak days for sure and Duncan was smack in the middle of his. Its kind of hard to justify but given the output, they're extremely similar. I would give Duncan the edge cuz I think hes better defensively and could've done more offensively but its amazing that a past his peak Shaq was still on a comparable level. RAPM has Duncan by a hair but both are the top-2 among superstars in that stat. If Shaq had stayed healthy, it would have been an epic Finals, as it was it was an epic Finals but the Heat were better than Detroit IMO. They couldn't mind**** Wade the way they did Kobe and it gave them a better chance despite a hobbled Shaq.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    So tell me why 2011 Wade is not his Goat season? I want to hear why 2011 Wade was not his best. I want to hear/see you say it. I’m going to ask until you answer it. Why is 2011 Wade not his best season? Wade had his 2nd and 3rd most scoring playoff series of all time in 2011.

    I know why you will never mention 2011 but I’m going to press until I hear you/see you post it. Here is a fun fact. Wades 2011 season was not his best FG% season ever. Every season with LeBron it went up. So 2012 Wade was his best and 2013 was even better. Hence the “2011 was Wade best efficient season “prior” season of all time”. Yet we called him washed. Lebron effect?

    Don’t follow box scores. Bigmoves03 knows his basketball. Listen and don’t just cheer on trolls. It’s embarrassing.
    Not sure what you guys are talking about but FG% isn't that great a barometer for efficiency. Wade's most efficient season were his championship season and his 09 season where he was balls to the wall, given the load he carried and what he got out of his squad, I would call 09 peak Wade. Peak Wade had his most offensively efficient and most prolific scoring season at the same time, its why no matter the stat/methodology/philosophy, they basically all favor that year (abit of contention here and there).

    His first year with Bron was his 3rd most efficient on a per possession basis but it tailed off every year thereafter and fell off a cliff when Bron left his side.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    This completely dismiss your “overall picture argument. So you basically going against your own train of thought. I on the hand agree with you original “bigger overall picture”
    Again, though, we can argue all day on whether or not Kobe was better in 2006 or 2009. But in terms of his best chance at "best player in the league," his best shot was '06 when he put up absurd numbers. Whether his season in 2009 was better is irrelevant, but Lebron put up otherworldly stats that dwarf Kobe and still made a solid run to the ECF.

    Basically what you did for 06 Wade. “Overall picture” again is being ignored. 09 Kobe was clearly a more impressive season. Kobe was to 09 what Leonard was to 2019. In 2015 James had lesser numbers but made the finals with injured Irving and Love. That lesser Lebron number wise season trumps 2009 or 2010 Lebron with better numbers.
    Wade's numbers in 2006 are definitely better than Kobe's were in 2009. And although Kobe and Wade's numbers postseason-wise are comparable, Wade's Finals performance is among the all-time greats. Also, what does Lebron in 2015 have to do with Wade or Kobe? Lebron didn't win MVP in 2015 and had one of the worst years of his career statistically—I don't think a ton of people who fight to argue that Lebron was the best player in the league in 2015, specifically.

    That’s why I specifically mentioned 2015 where Kevin Love got hurt and played zero Eastern finals games. Irving also got hurt. Shawn Marion is better then every Lebron teammate he had in the finals against GS. Jr Smith was the #2 on this team with Mozgof the #3. So Wade has no excuse to lose if the first if Lebron made the finals with less help. That’s why box scores don’t make your true best. Or “overall picture”.
    You're talking about one series, though, dude. You can't point to Lebron's supporting cast for one series and compare it to Wade's supporting cast for the entire season. His team was solid up until the Finals—not remotely comparable to the trash Wade played with in 2009.

    You exactly making my point why Kobe in 09 is not his best season. You said it best. I completely agree with you statement on Harden. Harden/Kobe/Wade best season is not the highest scoring season. If Harden gets 7 less points on average for the season and be at 30 a game and win a championship then thats Hardens “bigger picture”.
    Huh? You're making no sense here. Do you mean "Kobe in 06" is not his best season? Because that makes more sense based on the rest of this paragraph.

    Actually 2011 was a better season statistically. Wade had a higher FG% and his true shooting % was higher. Both his offensive rating was higher and his defense rating was higher. His Net rating was significantly higher as well. He also had an amazing playoffs. Averaged 30 against Boston and a all time Finals performance as well. Second only to 2006 Wade finals. So I say 2011 Wade was a better Wade then 2009.
    Huh? You're just cherrypicking stats that look at very specific things, whereas I pulled from the more comprehensive analytics that measure overall performance. If TS% makes you an elite player than DeAndre Jordan is among the greatest of all-time. Also Wade's ORtg was higher in 2009.

    And (again) if your argument is that 2011 Wade is better than 2006 or 2009 Wade, that point is irrelevant. I don't care about that. This thread is not "Which year was Wade's best season?" It's "Was Wade ever the best player in the league?" And if everyone on the planet recognizes that Lebron was the superior player on the very team Wade played on in 2011, the immediate answer to the question of whether Wade was the best player in in the NBA in 2011 is an automatic "no."

    So if you want to debate whether Wade was better in 2011 than Lebron, OK, we can have that conversation. But if you want to sit here and argue with me about whether 2011 was his best season, that's totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread.


  12. #147
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    How many League MVP’s does Wade have?


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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    How many League MVP’s does Wade have?


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    How many MVPs do Nash and Rose have? Winning an MVP doesn't necessarily mean you were the best player in the league that season. It also doesn't factor in the playoffs at all.


  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Numbers are not facts. They are just numbers. If you aren't able to read them, it's worth nothing. And almost no one has on PSD has shown any real knowledge of how to apply these numbers as facts, yet people seem to isolate their view on something they do not comprehend. Probably because it's easier than to admit that they do not comprehend the sport itself.
    to be fair, it's easy to say the numbers mean nothing when they don't paint the picture you agree with. That being said, comparing players from different era's by numbers is VERY hard to do. But we aren't doing that here. We are comparing players from the same era, same rules, same position, etc. Numbers indeed can be used side by side on this comparison. When comparing LeBron James to Larry Bird, yes, now context, and comparing against league averages, etc, for each player mean more than just stacking them side by side.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I disagree with 2007 but you’re also saying Wade had more help in 2009 than LeBron did in 2015? Lmfao!!!
    2015? Are you serious? That was - in my opinion- worse than the team AI had around him. He was in the finals with Delly,Mozgov, etc. Impossible to beat anyone honestly.

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