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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    those numbers tell plenty. If you chose to ignore various metrics that paint the math behind the results, that is fine.

    Each one of those years, we can easily debate him not being the best. Kobe's greatness came more from being in the conversation for that right over a 10-12 year span. But in any single year, the case against Kobe being the best is easier to prove than the case for.

    If you are going to laugh off statistics, not sure what to tell ya. Like I said above, perception is just that, it means nothing on how I form my opinions. GM's voted for YEARS that Kobe was the most clutch player in the game, when come to find out his team tanked in efficiency in close games (dropping over 20 points per 100 possessions in those situations), and he shot around 30% in 2 possession games under 5 minutes remaining. The human mind is very selective, hence why we have results tracked for perspective.
    You're right about the human mind, but it is actually incredibly adept at making highly accurate intuitive judgements and those intuitions usually beat out these models in terms of making accurate predictions. It's actually when we start trying to take in all these other factors that our judgements become very strange. The issue is that we start weighing factors that arent that important as being more important than the factors that are important (we're really, really bad at this). This is what is happening here, at least in my opinion. I'm not saying that we can't revisit history, but I am challenging the notion that these numbers give us adequate measures to assess differences among great players.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-10-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You're right about the human mind, but it is actually incredibly adept at making highly accurate intuitive judgements and those intuitions usually beat out these models in terms of making accurate predictions. It's actually when we start trying to take in all these other factors that our judgements become very strange. The issue is that we start weighing factors that arent that important as being more important than the factors that are important (we're really, really bad at this). This is what is happening here, at least in my opinion. I'm not saying that we can't revisit history, but I am challenging the notion that these numbers give us adequate measures to assess differences among great players.
    If trying to compare 2 different players from 2 different time periods, I agree you can't just stack them up and run with it. But we aren't doing that here. Both played against the same teams, same rules, same position, etc. It's very easy to compare them. No doubt Kobe's game was more visually pleasing, it reminded us of Jordan, where Wade just barreled in and forced the issue much of the time, which slows the game down, and bores fans. Kobe played in the sexy market, drawing more eyes, Wade played for a hard nosed team people barely followed.

    All of that being said, I watched them both. I understand the numbers. And I say Wade was better, at his best. But I also feel the need to continue to add, Wade at his best was just not consistently seen enough to put him on Kobe's level at the end of time.

    In no single year, did Kobe have an outright case as the leagues best player. That isn't a slight against him, hell there have only been a few players ever that the consensus goes, "yep, he is the best". Pick a year, I will give a case on why he wasn't.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  3. #108
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    06 was Kobes best statistical season and I already showed you he wasnít the best player then, and that wasnít even Wades statistical peak which should say a lot. Youíre going to be hard pressed to find any year Kobe was the best player.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    If trying to compare 2 different players from 2 different time periods, I agree you can't just stack them up and run with it. But we aren't doing that here. Both played against the same teams, same rules, same position, etc. It's very easy to compare them. No doubt Kobe's game was more visually pleasing, it reminded us of Jordan, where Wade just barreled in and forced the issue much of the time, which slows the game down, and bores fans. Kobe played in the sexy market, drawing more eyes, Wade played for a hard nosed team people barely followed.

    All of that being said, I watched them both. I understand the numbers. And I say Wade was better, at his best. But I also feel the need to continue to add, Wade at his best was just not consistently seen enough to put him on Kobe's level at the end of time.

    In no single year, did Kobe have an outright case as the leagues best player. That isn't a slight against him, hell there have only been a few players ever that the consensus goes, "yep, he is the best". Pick a year, I will give a case on why he wasn't.
    I agree about the numbers not clearly showing kobe was the best in any given year, I think where we disagree is that I dont think these numbers allow us to distinguish which great players had a greater impact on the game. I think they do allow us to see different categories of players, but I think distinguishing among the most elite players requires a more fine grained analysis than what is currently available through present day analytics.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    06 was Kobes best statistical season and I already showed you he wasnít the best player then, and that wasnít even Wades statistical peak which should say a lot. Youíre going to be hard pressed to find any year Kobe was the best player.
    Well we disagree about that lol

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I agree about the numbers not clearly showing kobe was the best in any given year, I think where we disagree is that I dont think these numbers allow us to distinguish which great players had a greater impact on the game. I think they do allow us to see different categories of players, but I think distinguishing among the most elite players requires a more fine grained analysis than what is currently available through present day analytics.
    There are metrics that measure impact specifically on both sides of the ball.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well we disagree about that lol
    Did you say in an earlier post Kobe is better than LeBron? Please tell me my eyes were deceiving me!!
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I would love to see any argument for LeBron or Kobe over Wade in 06
    Iím still waiting, especially for more than most after the disrespectful post he hit me with.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    There are metrics that measure impact specifically on both sides of the ball.
    There are metrics that purport to measure that, but I don't think they do a good job of that. At the core of this disagreement is that some of guys believe that the numbers are useful for drawing distinction among elite players, whereas I do not.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Did you say in an earlier post Kobe is better than LeBron? Please tell me my eyes were deceiving me!!
    In an earlier post? I've kept an entire thread going for almost a year now arguing that lol. I'm not the only one who has that position either, but that is a topic for a different thread. I do recognize though that I am in the minority on this point in here.

  11. #116
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    He's definitely been in the conversation but not sure if he qualifies as a top contender in any given season.

    His best argument is during the years 2005 to 2009 but you had Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Dirk [2007 to 2009], Tmac [2007] and Iverson [2005 + 2006] when healthy, Melo [debatable top 5 option during that time], Lebron [2006-2009], Howard [2008 to 2009] and perhaps Chris Paul [2008 to 2009] as others that could also be mentioned in the same breath.

    Wade was definitely a top 5 during all those 5 years and you have Duncan, Kobe and Garnett that can also be mentioned there. The 5th spot every year (not #5, but to complete the top 5) varies, but I think Wade never missed out on this. But best in the league? Hard to say, but he for sure was better than Kobe during a couple of those seasons so he was the best SG.

    Wade in 2009 was one of the best seasons from a SG ever, so he definitely deserves a shout. But the best player in the league during that time was Lebron, even if it were quite close.

  12. #117
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    Lol iggy you are trying to beat bigmoves at his own game. Truth is if one can context Kobe ahead Lebron I think itís only fair you try the same with Wade.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lol iggy you are trying to beat bigmoves at his own game. Truth is if one can context Kobe ahead Lebron I think itís only fair you try the same with Wade.
    Hahaha no I know LeBron is better than Wade Iím not near as delusional than my brother bigmoves, I know when enough is enough 😂

    But Wade has had better seasons than LeBron before.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    He's definitely been in the conversation but not sure if he qualifies as a top contender in any given season.

    His best argument is during the years 2005 to 2009 but you had Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Dirk [2007 to 2009], Tmac [2007] and Iverson [2005 + 2006] when healthy, Melo [debatable top 5 option during that time], Lebron [2006-2009], Howard [2008 to 2009] and perhaps Chris Paul [2008 to 2009] as others that could also be mentioned in the same breath.

    Wade was definitely a top 5 during all those 5 years and you have Duncan, Kobe and Garnett that can also be mentioned there. The 5th spot every year (not #5, but to complete the top 5) varies, but I think Wade never missed out on this. But best in the league? Hard to say, but he for sure was better than Kobe during a couple of those seasons so he was the best SG.

    Wade in 2009 was one of the best seasons from a SG ever, so he definitely deserves a shout. But the best player in the league during that time was Lebron, even if it were quite close.
    I agree that he was in the conversation for sure. I think he was probably in the top 3 for about 2 years or so (maybe a little longer), but I dont think Wade was ever #1.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-10-2020 at 05:22 PM.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    06 was Kobes best statistical season and I already showed you he wasnít the best player then, and that wasnít even Wades statistical peak which should say a lot. Youíre going to be hard pressed to find any year Kobe was the best player.
    Again why is 06 Kobes best? It put him on a different GOAT list that even Kareem is not on. I still donít consider that season his best when he was better in other seasons overall picture.
    Last edited by Bostonjorge; 07-10-2020 at 10:04 PM.

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