Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 166
  1. #91
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,179
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I have broken it down. During Wade's peak kobe was picked ahead of him for all-nba through most of it and also all-defensive teams. Wade finally made a first team but it took him a while and he still didnt supplant kobe he merely joined him on it. Wade didnt put up better numbers either, ive been saying that from the start. We can pick out several seasons from kobe and compare any of them to any of Wade's best seasons you want to look at. But it also doesnt really matter, because the numbers miss so, so much more. Offensively, Wade did not have anywhere near the skill that kobe did. Kobe was the most offensive skilled player to ever play the game. Wade is not in that discussion. That changes how defenses can guard you. Wade was never really a threat to go off the way kobe could. Defenses had to fight tooth and nail to keep kobe from having a historic night and that was on a nightly basis. That was never a concern with Wade. To say theyre on different levels is frankly an understatement, at least as scorers. Wade might've been better at getting to the rim than Kobe (but that's difficult to assess, because Wade tried a lot harder to get to the rim). I do think Wade was a slightly better playmaker. It's a toss up in terms of moves and footwork off the dribble, but that's really where it ends. Kobe was better than Wade at every other offensive aspect of the game: kobe was a much better shooter, better off the ball, had better moves off the ball, better footwork off the ball, vastly superior post game, vastly superior footwork in the post, vastly superior post moves, had a much larger array of shots he could hit out of the post, had a better midrange game. I could go on and on, but there's really no need. Kobe was arguably the hardest player to defend with the ball in the history of the league. Phil said Kobe was better with the ball than MJ, which he was, but MJ was better off the ball, which is also true. Wade was simply never, ever close to being on that level. This also isnt a slight on Wade, it's an indicator that you as well as a few others on here didn't really recognize or appreciate the different facets of what made kobe great and how he impacted the game.
    We get it, you liked how it looked better and are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that it ultimately doesnt matter in a conversation of who was better. Results are more important than style.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    3,311
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    We get it, you liked how it looked better and are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that it ultimately doesnt matter in a conversation of who was better. Results are more important than style.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    This.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    A case canít be made as you can see in my post listing players A-E. Iverson is player A, he doesnít compare statistically or success wise to the other 4 that season. This shows where you donít fully understand as people no longer base their opinions on only the basic stats like PPG.

    Give me your meaningful statistics.
    Well A.I. would belong in the conversation based on the raw numbers. I agree that the advanced metrics suggest that he doesnt, but not everyone agrees that those are better than the raw metrics, I certainly don't. One critical issue, among many, is that the advanced metrics are often skewed towards good teams, that is, if youre on a good team, you often score higher on some of the advanced metrics than if youre on a bad team, but it's not appropriate to deconstruct the game like that. Frankly, I don't believe that we have good metrics at the moment to provide meaningful statistics in basketball, at least not in assessing which great players were better. I think we can use raw numbers to make basic classifications (Player A is an elite player, Player B is a role player, etc.). I don't think that we can use any present metrics to assess which elite players were/are better than one another.

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    79,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, we can go in and revise history by looking at numbers that you're not qualified to understand let alone interpret lol. Sorry, but that's not how it works.
    revise history? No, it's actually quite an easy argument against Kobe in any given year. It's much harder to prove he was at any point outright the best player in the game for a season. I have had this debate many times through the years. Pick a year you think he was the best in the game.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    79,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    We get it, you liked how it looked better and are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that it ultimately doesnt matter in a conversation of who was better. Results are more important than style.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    I haven't read many of his posts, is this reminiscent of when guys would tell me Melo was a better scorer than Bron cause he had all the moves?

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    79,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Lol well that's your opinion and certainly not one that was considered reasonable at the time. The question wasnt even taken very seriously by most. Kobe was a vastly, vastly superior offensive player and a better defender. It's backed up by what they actually did during their playing days.
    dude, Kobe used to win the GM survey on who is the most clutch, even though we know for a fact he wasn't. Public opinion of a player does nothing for me when it comes to validation.

    Kobe had a far longer, more consistent peak. His accolades result from this. His ranking in time reflects this. But even a Tracy McGrady might have been better for a season than Kobe ever was, it doesn't mean anyone takes him seriously as an all timer. Wade, at his absolute best, was better than Kobe, we saw it, the numbers say it, his 06' finals was better than anything Kobe ever did in the playoffs for example. But Kobe sustained his greatness over time, molded his game to play longer, at a higher level, and that is that. I said early on by the time Wade was 30 he would decline, you can't just crash into everything and live to tell about it haha.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #97
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    79,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well A.I. would belong in the conversation based on the raw numbers. I agree that the advanced metrics suggest that he doesnt, but not everyone agrees that those are better than the raw metrics, I certainly don't. One critical issue, among many, is that the advanced metrics are often skewed towards good teams, that is, if youre on a good team, you often score higher on some of the advanced metrics than if youre on a bad team, but it's not appropriate to deconstruct the game like that. Frankly, I don't believe that we have good metrics at the moment to provide meaningful statistics in basketball, at least not in assessing which great players were better. I think we can use raw numbers to make basic classifications (Player A is an elite player, Player B is a role player, etc.). I don't think that we can use any present metrics to assess which elite players were/are better than one another.
    you can pull plenty of metrics that isolate a player, especially offensively. AI is polarizing in that advanced metrics tell a completely different story than raw metrics with him. He is the ultimate example of why we actually need advanced metrics to evaluate. Because if he is your #1 option, you aint winning ****.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,179
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I haven't read many of his posts, is this reminiscent of when guys would tell me Melo was a better scorer than Bron cause he had all the moves?
    You know it

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    26,179
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    dude, Kobe used to win the GM survey on who is the most clutch, even though we know for a fact he wasn't. Public opinion of a player does nothing for me when it comes to validation.

    Kobe had a far longer, more consistent peak. His accolades result from this. His ranking in time reflects this. But even a Tracy McGrady might have been better for a season than Kobe ever was, it doesn't mean anyone takes him seriously as an all timer. Wade, at his absolute best, was better than Kobe, we saw it, the numbers say it, his 06' finals was better than anything Kobe ever did in the playoffs for example. But Kobe sustained his greatness over time, molded his game to play longer, at a higher level, and that is that. I said early on by the time Wade was 30 he would decline, you can't just crash into everything and live to tell about it haha.
    That is sorta where I was about to chime in. It shouldn't be hard to fathom that at one point wade was considered his equal or better, considering he came in older, fell off a cliff relatively early and STILL isnt that far behind Kobe on most peoples lists.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    We get it, you liked how it looked better and are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that it ultimately doesnt matter in a conversation of who was better. Results are more important than style.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    No, it has nothing to do with how it looked. It has everything to do with actually assessing the players and their skillsets and abilities. Looking at the numbers you guys are looking at isnt going to tell us much of anything.

  11. #101
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    revise history? No, it's actually quite an easy argument against Kobe in any given year. It's much harder to prove he was at any point outright the best player in the game for a season. I have had this debate many times through the years. Pick a year you think he was the best in the game.
    In my book, kobe was the best from 03-10. I think he was recognized as the best player in the game from around 06-10, with the 08-09 being were most gave it to kobe. Were there years that other guys had better numbers than him during that stretch? Yes, but as I've noted, those numbers don't tell too much other than to help us recognize who are elite players.

  12. #102
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    dude, Kobe used to win the GM survey on who is the most clutch, even though we know for a fact he wasn't. Public opinion of a player does nothing for me when it comes to validation.

    Kobe had a far longer, more consistent peak. His accolades result from this. His ranking in time reflects this. But even a Tracy McGrady might have been better for a season than Kobe ever was, it doesn't mean anyone takes him seriously as an all timer. Wade, at his absolute best, was better than Kobe, we saw it, the numbers say it, his 06' finals was better than anything Kobe ever did in the playoffs for example. But Kobe sustained his greatness over time, molded his game to play longer, at a higher level, and that is that. I said early on by the time Wade was 30 he would decline, you can't just crash into everything and live to tell about it haha.
    Yeah, we definitely do not know that he was not the most clutch. You might agree with that position, but I certainly don't. Saying "we saw it" doesnt really hold here, because your position here is in the wide minority. If we go back and look at player rankings during this time, kobe is widely picked ahead of Wade in most lists. So I get that you thought Wade was better at his peak, but this wasnt the consensus. The numbers are not clear in terms of who they support, but they also do not provide the assessment that you guys are trying to make so it's not relevant.

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    79,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    In my book, kobe was the best from 03-10. I think he was recognized as the best player in the game from around 06-10, with the 08-09 being were most gave it to kobe. Were there years that other guys had better numbers than him during that stretch? Yes, but as I've noted, those numbers don't tell too much other than to help us recognize who are elite players.
    those numbers tell plenty. If you chose to ignore various metrics that paint the math behind the results, that is fine.

    Each one of those years, we can easily debate him not being the best. Kobe's greatness came more from being in the conversation for that right over a 10-12 year span. But in any single year, the case against Kobe being the best is easier to prove than the case for.

    If you are going to laugh off statistics, not sure what to tell ya. Like I said above, perception is just that, it means nothing on how I form my opinions. GM's voted for YEARS that Kobe was the most clutch player in the game, when come to find out his team tanked in efficiency in close games (dropping over 20 points per 100 possessions in those situations), and he shot around 30% in 2 possession games under 5 minutes remaining. The human mind is very selective, hence why we have results tracked for perspective.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #104
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    79,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yeah, we definitely do not know that he was not the most clutch. You might agree with that position, but I certainly don't. Saying "we saw it" doesnt really hold here, because your position here is in the wide minority. If we go back and look at player rankings during this time, kobe is widely picked ahead of Wade in most lists. So I get that you thought Wade was better at his peak, but this wasnt the consensus. The numbers are not clear in terms of who they support, but they also do not provide the assessment that you guys are trying to make so it's not relevant.
    We thought smoking wasn't bad for you years ago. Does that make it true? I don't give a **** what the masses thought 15 years ago. You can absolutely re-visit history and come up with different opinions.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #105
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    you can pull plenty of metrics that isolate a player, especially offensively. AI is polarizing in that advanced metrics tell a completely different story than raw metrics with him. He is the ultimate example of why we actually need advanced metrics to evaluate. Because if he is your #1 option, you aint winning ****.
    Nah, I completely disagree with this (not entirely about A.I.), with the part about isolating a player's impact. The present metrics don't provide any real measure of warping the floor, which at least imo is the greatest impact an elite superstar can provide on the offensive side of the ball. This is the reason why I pick Kobe ahead of LBJ and why I dont think that Wade matched Kobe at his peak. Wade simply didnt require the type of offensive attention that kobe did. Again, it's not intended as disrespect to Wade. He was a great player during his peak, but kobe was probably the hardest player to ever guard with the ball. He could be goaded into tough shots, but what the defense gave up to make that happen often led to losing the war (so to speak). I simply dont think Wade ever had that kind of impact.

Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •