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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I have broken it down. During Wade's peak kobe was picked ahead of him for all-nba through most of it and also all-defensive teams. Wade finally made a first team but it took him a while and he still didnt supplant kobe he merely joined him on it. Wade didnt put up better numbers either, ive been saying that from the start. We can pick out several seasons from kobe and compare any of them to any of Wade's best seasons you want to look at. But it also doesnt really matter, because the numbers miss so, so much more. Offensively, Wade did not have anywhere near the skill that kobe did. Kobe was the most offensive skilled player to ever play the game. Wade is not in that discussion. That changes how defenses can guard you. Wade was never really a threat to go off the way kobe could. Defenses had to fight tooth and nail to keep kobe from having a historic night and that was on a nightly basis. That was never a concern with Wade. To say theyre on different levels is frankly an understatement, at least as scorers. Wade might've been better at getting to the rim than Kobe (but that's difficult to assess, because Wade tried a lot harder to get to the rim). I do think Wade was a slightly better playmaker. It's a toss up in terms of moves and footwork off the dribble, but that's really where it ends. Kobe was better than Wade at every other offensive aspect of the game: kobe was a much better shooter, better off the ball, had better moves off the ball, better footwork off the ball, vastly superior post game, vastly superior footwork in the post, vastly superior post moves, had a much larger array of shots he could hit out of the post, had a better midrange game. I could go on and on, but there's really no need. Kobe was arguably the hardest player to defend with the ball in the history of the league. Phil said Kobe was better with the ball than MJ, which he was, but MJ was better off the ball, which is also true. Wade was simply never, ever close to being on that level. This also isnt a slight on Wade, it's an indicator that you as well as a few others on here didn't really recognize or appreciate the different facets of what made kobe great and how he impacted the game.
    So what youíre saying is you never watched prime Wade?
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Which of the following would you All consider the best season?

    Player A: 33-3-7.5-2 on 25.3 shots .54TS% 25.9 PER 8.8 OWS 1.8 DWS 10.6WS 5.8OBPM -1DBPM 4.8BPM 5.3VORP .165 WS/48

    Team record: 38-44
    Season outcome: didnít make the playoffs

    Player B: 18.8-4-10.5 on 13.4 FGA .632TS% 23.3 PER 10.3OWS 2.1DWS 12.4WS 5.7OBPM -.7DBPM 5.0BPM 4.9 VORP .212 WS/48

    Team record: 58-24
    Season outcome: Won MVP and lost in the WCF.

    Player 3: 27.2-5.7-6.7-2-1 on 18.8 shots .577 TS% 27.6PER 10.2OWS 4.2DWS 14.4WS 5.9OBPM 1.8DBPM 7.7BPM 7.1 VORP .239 WS/48

    Team record: 52-30
    Season outcome: championship and finals mvp

    Player D: 35.4-5.3-4.5-1.8 on 27.2 shots .559TS% 28.0 PER 11.6OWS 3.7DWS 15.3WS 7.4OBPM .2DBPM 7.6BPM 8.0 VORP .224 WS/48

    Team record: 45-37
    Season outcome: 1st round exit

    Player E: 31.4-7-6.6-1.6-1 on 23.1 shots .569TS% 28.1 PER 12.0OWS 4.3 DWS 16.3 WS 7.5 OBPM 1.6DBPM 9.1BPM 9.4 VORP .232 WS/48

    Team record:50-32
    Season outcome: 2nd round exit
    Nah, doing the bleacher report thing won't work. It was done intentionally as a click bait thing and was rightfully ignored by most. As Ive said before, don't bring in numbers that you yourself don't understand. If you can go ahead and break down the formula for each of the stats you posted and then explain why each of those variables actually is meaningful and provides a good metric of assessment between players then we can BEGIN to discuss those numbers. Also, make sure that when you're citing any of Kobe's numbers pre-2006, we're adjusting for the massive rule differences, because that led to a lot more scoring and higher fg% for players. For example, 30 pts that kobe averaged in 03 is not the same as 30 pts in 06, we have adjust for the inflation that occurred league wide due to the rule changes, same with assists and shooting %.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    So what youíre saying is you never watched prime Wade?
    Oh I saw prime Wade. He was an excellent player. Very skilled, just not on a historic level like Kobe. Wade's career high in pts is 55. Kobe had four consecutive games where he averaged over a pt above that. That's the thing, is that if defenses didnt guard him like they did, he would put up video game-like numbers on a nightly bases. He also had that crazy string of 40-plus point games...and this was back when those scoring games were much rarer because defenses were allowed to play much more physical. Wade wasnt that kind of threat and so he didnt have to be guarded the way that kobe was. That warps the floor in ways that are not going to be captured by simply looking at the boxscore. Again, it's no disrespect to Wade. He was a great player, but he wasnt on that level.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Which of the following would you All consider the best season?

    Player A: 33-3-7.5-2 on 25.3 shots .54TS% 25.9 PER 8.8 OWS 1.8 DWS 10.6WS 5.8OBPM -1DBPM 4.8BPM 5.3VORP .165 WS/48

    Team record: 38-44
    Season outcome: didnít make the playoffs

    Player B: 18.8-4-10.5 on 13.4 FGA .632TS% 23.3 PER 10.3OWS 2.1DWS 12.4WS 5.7OBPM -.7DBPM 5.0BPM 4.9 VORP .212 WS/48

    Team record: 58-24
    Season outcome: Won MVP and lost in the WCF.

    Player 3: 27.2-5.7-6.7-2-1 on 18.8 shots .577 TS% 27.6PER 10.2OWS 4.2DWS 14.4WS 5.9OBPM 1.8DBPM 7.7BPM 7.1 VORP .239 WS/48

    Team record: 52-30
    Season outcome: championship and finals mvp

    Player D: 35.4-5.3-4.5-1.8 on 27.2 shots .559TS% 28.0 PER 11.6OWS 3.7DWS 15.3WS 7.4OBPM .2DBPM 7.6BPM 8.0 VORP .224 WS/48

    Team record: 45-37
    Season outcome: 1st round exit

    Player E: 31.4-7-6.6-1.6-1 on 23.1 shots .569TS% 28.1 PER 12.0OWS 4.3 DWS 16.3 WS 7.5 OBPM 1.6DBPM 9.1BPM 9.4 VORP .232 WS/48

    Team record:50-32
    Season outcome: 2nd round exit
    I know what season and who is who here, and I think I'd go with the third guy (as previously mentioned). But you are missing one HUGE name who should be on this list: a certain German PF. Consider his numbers that year and the team success he had that year, and I actually think he would make a damn strong case as well. Player A really doesn't belong on this listódon't get me started on that guy...


  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Nah, doing the bleacher report thing won't work. It was done intentionally as a click bait thing and was rightfully ignored by most. As Ive said before, don't bring in numbers that you yourself don't understand. If you can go ahead and break down the formula for each of the stats you posted and then explain why each of those variables actually is meaningful and provides a good metric of assessment between players then we can BEGIN to discuss those numbers. Also, make sure that when you're citing any of Kobe's numbers pre-2006, we're adjusting for the massive rule differences, because that led to a lot more scoring and higher fg% for players. For example, 30 pts that kobe averaged in 03 is not the same as 30 pts in 06, we have adjust for the inflation that occurred league wide due to the rule changes, same with assists and shooting %.
    Nothing to do with bleacher report and Iím not going to explain each statistic just because youíre uneducated. None of these statistics are for the same exact season. Who do you think had the best season, if you were a player which season would you rather have?
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I know what season and who is who here, and I think I'd go with the third guy (as previously mentioned). But you are missing one HUGE name who should be on this list: a certain German PF. Consider his numbers that year and the team success he had that year, and I actually think he would make a damn strong case as well. Player A really doesn't belong on this listódon't get me started on that guy...
    I was actually going to put Dirk in there but decided to include player B instead since he won MVP. I can add Dirk and wouldnít have a problem with anyone taking him 2nd, I just canít see him as 1st after what Wade did to them in the finals though and Dirk had the perfect opportunity to close them out, even choked a game away at the free throw line at the end (maybe game 3 but I canít remember off the top of my head).

    Player A definitely doesnít belong, he was just included because Bigmoves said you could make a case for him being the best numbers wise.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Oh I saw prime Wade. He was an excellent player. Very skilled, just not on a historic level like Kobe. Wade's career high in pts is 55. Kobe had four consecutive games where he averaged over a pt above that. That's the thing, is that if defenses didnt guard him like they did, he would put up video game-like numbers on a nightly bases. He also had that crazy string of 40-plus point games...and this was back when those scoring games were much rarer because defenses were allowed to play much more physical. Wade wasnt that kind of threat and so he didnt have to be guarded the way that kobe was. That warps the floor in ways that are not going to be captured by simply looking at the boxscore. Again, it's no disrespect to Wade. He was a great player, but he wasnt on that level.
    Isnít KDs career high 54? Heís a better scorer than Kobe too. Career high PPG donít matter much in the grand scheme of things.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Nothing to do with bleacher report and Iím not going to explain each statistic just because youíre uneducated. None of these statistics are for the same exact season. Who do you think had the best season, if you were a player which season would you rather have?
    Bro, I'm a freaken scientist and teach statistics to graduate students regularly. I understand these numbers very well lol, which is the reason why I don't think these numbers should be used to assess who is better than who as players. I've also demonstrated in other threads how many of those metrics usually have dudes who are clearly role players or nowhere near being elite ranked ahead of clear superstars. It happens every year and there are a ton of examples of it occurring. When assessing players, we should be focusing on their actual abilities and skills and how they impact the game on both ends of the floor.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Isnít KDs career high 54? Heís a better scorer than Kobe too. Career high PPG donít matter much in the grand scheme of things.
    Lol KD is not a better scorer than Kobe dude.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Bro, I'm a freaken scientist and teach statistics to graduate students regularly. I understand these numbers very well lol, which is the reason why I don't think these numbers should be used to assess who is better than who as players. I've also demonstrated in other threads how many of those metrics usually have dudes who are clearly role players or nowhere near being elite ranked ahead of clear superstars. It happens every year and there are a ton of examples of it occurring. When assessing players, we should be focusing on their actual abilities and skills and how they impact the game on both ends of the floor.
    Good for you man, thatís awesome! I wouldnít have assumed that since you said statistically Iverson had a case as the best.

    You have the basic statistics, advanced statistics, the outcome of their season and everything listed there, no average role player would be chosen over these guys all things considered. If this projected Kobe as the best you would be all for it but it projects him as the 3rd best listed, at best so you donít like it. All things considered, which player listed would you take?
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Lol KD is not a better scorer than Kobe dude.
    How? Back it up. KD is better and far more efficient. Heíd average 40 if he shot 28 shots like Kobe did.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Good for you man, thatís awesome! I wouldnít have assumed that since you said statistically Iverson had a case as the best.

    You have the basic statistics, advanced statistics, the outcome of their season and everything listed there, no average role player would be chosen over these guys all things considered. If this projected Kobe as the best you would be all for it but it projects him as the 3rd best listed, at best so you donít like it. All things considered, which player listed would you take?
    I said that a case could be made for A.I. Not that I would take him. In 06, he put up 33pts a game to go with about 7.5 ast and something like 2 stls and 3 reb. I wouldnt put him in that conversation, but just based on the raw numbers a case can definitely be made.

    I wouldnt be all over this regardless of who it projected, because I don't consider these numbers to be super meaningful. Again, if we want to assess players, we should discuss their skills and abilities. I agree that production wise, Wade definitely belongs in the conversation and a case can be made for him, but I don't think that comes close to capturing the true impact these guys are having on the game.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    How? Back it up. KD is better and far more efficient. Heíd average 40 if he shot 28 shots like Kobe did.
    Well if we look at their top scoring seasons, kobe wins out every time. Sure kobe shot more, but the difference is about one more shot and youre assuming that shooting it more would transform linearly, meaning that what KD can do with 18-19 shots or so will scale up to 28 shots (kobe never shot more than slightly over 27). Getting to your spot and taking that many more shots wears players down though and so it's unclear what KD would put up if he took 28 shots. Also when comparing them, we have to account for the differences in scoring and defenses across eras, due to the different rules. When we factor that in, the slight to moderate advantage for kobe is going to become a bit larger and the efficiency advantage is going to decrease some for KD, which already isnt all that big (it amounts to about kobe missing 1 more shot per game, but that's before making any adjustments). Just looking at their max output games, it's clear how much more potent kobe was as a scorer.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-10-2020 at 01:55 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I said that a case could be made for A.I. Not that I would take him. In 06, he put up 33pts a game to go with about 7.5 ast and something like 2 stls and 3 reb. I wouldnt put him in that conversation, but just based on the raw numbers a case can definitely be made.

    I wouldnt be all over this regardless of who it projected, because I don't consider these numbers to be super meaningful. Again, if we want to assess players, we should discuss their skills and abilities. I agree that production wise, Wade definitely belongs in the conversation and a case can be made for him, but I don't think that comes close to capturing the true impact these guys are having on the game.
    A case canít be made as you can see in my post listing players A-E. Iverson is player A, he doesnít compare statistically or success wise to the other 4 that season. This shows where you donít fully understand as people no longer base their opinions on only the basic stats like PPG.

    Give me your meaningful statistics.
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    nah, I watched both, and know the numbers. Wade, at his absolute best, was a better 2 way player. But, that doesn't really matter, as Wade was so up/down when it came to injury during his peak, you couldn't rely on him like you could Kobe.
    Precisely

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

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