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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post


    jesus christ... he has an arguement for 1 season at best and lebron was still the better 2 way player... there is 0 argument for any other season. My god people do your homework

    edit- thought you meant kobe which at least had a discussion for 1 season... there was 0 seasons wade was better than lebron
    Through their 1st 3 seasons I guarantee Wade was ranked as the higher all time player, that alone gives him at least 2 better seasons, I’ll give LeBron his rookie year. 07 Wade would’ve won MVP and possibly back to back championships until injury. LeBron wasn’t winning MVP. 2011 he was the Heats best player. Prove any of these claims I made as false
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    8/24/2

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    We don't often agree, but I do agree with the last sentence here lol
    That’s not something to be proud of
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    8/24/2

  3. #63
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    I would love to see any argument for LeBron or Kobe over Wade in 06
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    8/24/2

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    wanted to last night, working 10-12 hour shifts the past few weeks has pretty much killed my free time. I cant get home to my pc to really type anything worthwhile. I think wade suffers from Kobe being the elder statesman and not having a prolonged period of dominance. when he was beginning to make a name for himself he got hurt and was out of sight out of mind until those Olympics at which point he only had a few years left. Part of me wishes he and Bosh had joined Chicago and let Bron do whatever, cuz that would've been a dynasty for a stretch there.


    Still, there is historical precedent for retroactively deeming someone superior. bill Russell was always considered greater than wilt, perhaps justifiably so, but somewhere around the mid 80s, early 90s the zeitgeist began to shift and today pretty much everyone has wilt ahead. his clearly superior production trumped Russell dominance winning, maybe it will happen to Wade tho I know alot of fans already take peak wade over any iteration of Kobe
    Yea that’s a good point and they definitely do take him over Kobe, I see it all the time. Wade the better peak, Kobe with better longevity.
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    8/24/2

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    How is 2006 Kobe’s best case? Is it because he scored more points in that season then 8 players ever did on the top 10 goat list? Kareem, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, Dream and Bill Russel never reached 2006 Kobe. Your excuse for Wade having a “stronger case” over Kobe and the other 8 Goats that season is because “overall picture”? As legendary and how difficult this season was this was not Kobes best season. “Overall picture” Kobe was the best player for many seasons. Of course if we use “overall picture”.

    You then mentioned 2009 Wade and point to his numbers. Wade 2009 numbers trumps LeBron’s numbers in 2015 or 2007 yet LeBron went to the finals those years. 2009 Wade lost in the first round with more help on his team. If this is a peak year then I don’t understand why he couldn’t do what a non peak James did? Even tho Kobe scored more points in a single season then 8 Goats its still not his best season like 2009 is not Wades best season. “Overall Picture” Lebron in 2007 and 2015 was better then 2009 Wade.

    2011 Wade averaged 5 less shots and only scored 4.5 less points then 2009 Wade. 2011 advanced ratings, % numbers and especially “overall picture” Trump 2009 Wade.
    I disagree with 2007 but you’re also saying Wade had more help in 2009 than LeBron did in 2015? Lmfao!!!
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    8/24/2

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Well, a lot of people couldnt stand him, that is probably what he means. I don't know what players most of my friends don't like, generally speaking. But I knew 5 or 6 people who were happy to tell you they hated Kobe.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    It was opposite for me, all my friends loved and still love Kobe. To them he’s either the GOAT or 2nd best ever. Both are false but that’s how much they love him.
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    8/24/2

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I’m not saying he was loved by all, hell plenty of people hate LeBron too who is a far greater player than Kobe. More people liked him than disliked him but keep talking out of your ***.
    The point was that media figures were picking kobe ahead of Wade during that time, despite probably being the most disliked player in the league during that time. People openly hated kobe for a while. He eventually repaired his image, but from about 04 to around 2016 or so Kobe was not well liked and was in fact very much disliked.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I would love to see any argument for LeBron or Kobe over Wade in 06
    There's no need to break it down. The consensus during the time was Kobe, LBJ, in that order. As others have noted, it wasnt really a question that was seriously considered. Sure, you're going to get some people who make some fringe argument, but that same type of thing was happening for kobe back in 01 as to whether he was the best player and people were saying that he was better than MJ shortly thereafter. That doesnt make it so, just like it doesnt make it so that Wade was better than Kobe or LBJ during that stretch. You're basically looking at a boxscore to retroactively determine that Wade was better. That's not really appropriate for various reasons and can lead to super misleading conclusions. For example, from simply looking at the boxscore, a case can be made for A.I. being the best player in the NBA in 06, but he clearly wasnt, just like Wade wasn't.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The best of wade was never better than kobe. Despite being wildly unpopular during Wade's peak, kobe was by a large consensus ranked ahead of Wade during that entire time. All of this is revisionist history based on looking at a boxscores.
    nah, I watched both, and know the numbers. Wade, at his absolute best, was a better 2 way player. But, that doesn't really matter, as Wade was so up/down when it came to injury during his peak, you couldn't rely on him like you could Kobe.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The point was that media figures were picking kobe ahead of Wade during that time, despite probably being the most disliked player in the league during that time. People openly hated kobe for a while. He eventually repaired his image, but from about 04 to around 2016 or so Kobe was not well liked and was in fact very much disliked.
    Lmao!!!
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    8/24/2

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    There's no need to break it down. The consensus during the time was Kobe, LBJ, in that order. As others have noted, it wasnt really a question that was seriously considered. Sure, you're going to get some people who make some fringe argument, but that same type of thing was happening for kobe back in 01 as to whether he was the best player and people were saying that he was better than MJ shortly thereafter. That doesnt make it so, just like it doesnt make it so that Wade was better than Kobe or LBJ during that stretch. You're basically looking at a boxscore to retroactively determine that Wade was better. That's not really appropriate for various reasons and can lead to super misleading conclusions. For example, from simply looking at the boxscore, a case can be made for A.I. being the best player in the NBA in 06, but he clearly wasnt, just like Wade wasn't.
    There’s no need to break it down because you can’t. So if Wade has better numbers, busts his *** head to head and wins the championship he wasn’t the better player?

    You literally can’t make a case for AI, Wades numbers in 05-06 **** on his and Wade won the championship with the 2nd greatest (1st at the time) finals performance ever.
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    8/24/2

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    nah, I watched both, and know the numbers. Wade, at his absolute best, was a better 2 way player. But, that doesn't really matter, as Wade was so up/down when it came to injury during his peak, you couldn't rely on him like you could Kobe.
    Lol well that's your opinion and certainly not one that was considered reasonable at the time. The question wasnt even taken very seriously by most. Kobe was a vastly, vastly superior offensive player and a better defender. It's backed up by what they actually did during their playing days.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    There’s no need to break it down because you can’t. So if Wade has better numbers, busts his *** head to head and wins the championship he wasn’t the better player?

    You literally can’t make a case for AI, Wades numbers in 05-06 **** on his and Wade won the championship with the 2nd greatest (1st at the time) finals performance ever.
    I have broken it down. During Wade's peak kobe was picked ahead of him for all-nba through most of it and also all-defensive teams. Wade finally made a first team but it took him a while and he still didnt supplant kobe he merely joined him on it. Wade didnt put up better numbers either, ive been saying that from the start. We can pick out several seasons from kobe and compare any of them to any of Wade's best seasons you want to look at. But it also doesnt really matter, because the numbers miss so, so much more. Offensively, Wade did not have anywhere near the skill that kobe did. Kobe was the most offensive skilled player to ever play the game. Wade is not in that discussion. That changes how defenses can guard you. Wade was never really a threat to go off the way kobe could. Defenses had to fight tooth and nail to keep kobe from having a historic night and that was on a nightly basis. That was never a concern with Wade. To say theyre on different levels is frankly an understatement, at least as scorers. Wade might've been better at getting to the rim than Kobe (but that's difficult to assess, because Wade tried a lot harder to get to the rim). I do think Wade was a slightly better playmaker. It's a toss up in terms of moves and footwork off the dribble, but that's really where it ends. Kobe was better than Wade at every other offensive aspect of the game: kobe was a much better shooter, better off the ball, had better moves off the ball, better footwork off the ball, vastly superior post game, vastly superior footwork in the post, vastly superior post moves, had a much larger array of shots he could hit out of the post, had a better midrange game. I could go on and on, but there's really no need. Kobe was arguably the hardest player to defend with the ball in the history of the league. Phil said Kobe was better with the ball than MJ, which he was, but MJ was better off the ball, which is also true. Wade was simply never, ever close to being on that level. This also isnt a slight on Wade, it's an indicator that you as well as a few others on here didn't really recognize or appreciate the different facets of what made kobe great and how he impacted the game.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-10-2020 at 12:35 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    How is 2006 Kobe’s best case? Is it because he scored more points in that season then 8 players ever did on the top 10 goat list? Kareem, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Duncan, Dream and Bill Russel never reached 2006 Kobe.
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Yes, I think that was Kobe's best case because it was his most individually dominant season in both base stats and advanced metrics. 05-06 Kobe was clearly peak Kobe.

    Your excuse for Wade having a “stronger case” over Kobe and the other 8 Goats that season is because “overall picture”? As legendary and how difficult this season was this was not Kobes best season. “Overall picture” Kobe was the best player for many seasons. Of course if we use “overall picture”.
    OK, but I think the problem is that Kobe's best "overall" seasons in terms of titles and playoff production didn't necessarily correspond with his best individual years in the regular season. Like you could make a decent Kobe case for 08-09 because he won the title and Finals MVP with some damn impressive playoff production and some decent regular season numbers. But Lebron's numbers totally dwarf him that year, and the Cavs still made it to the ECF, so it's not like there's zero postseason success to speak of there.

    You then mentioned 2009 Wade and point to his numbers. Wade 2009 numbers trumps LeBron’s numbers in 2015 or 2007 yet LeBron went to the finals those years. 2009 Wade lost in the first round with more help on his team.
    I don't think you can say '09 Wade had more help on this team than '15 or '17 Lebron. Like those Cavs teams in Lebron's second stint in Cleveland were not historically amazing by any stretch of the imagination, but he still had Irving, Love and some solid role players. Wade's best teammates in 09 were Shawn Marion and Michael freaking Beasley. No one else on that team aside from Wade averaged more than 14 points a game. That team was hot garbage.

    If this is a peak year then I don’t understand why he couldn’t do what a non peak James did?
    Because his team was trash? See note above.

    Even tho Kobe scored more points in a single season then 8 Goats its still not his best season like 2009 is not Wades best season. “Overall Picture” Lebron in 2007 and 2015 was better then 2009 Wade.
    You keep bringing up this point. You know who else did that? James Harden. But if I asked the average fan who the best player was in the league in 2018-19, they'd easily pick Giannis or Kawhi over Harden, and honestly, they'd probably be right. (That's coming from a Rockets fan.) Points per game are not the end-all, be-all of barometers in these discussions.

    2011 Wade averaged 5 less shots and only scored 4.5 less points then 2009 Wade. 2011 advanced ratings, % numbers and especially “overall picture” Trump 2009 Wade.
    Actually '09 Wade was statistically superior to '11 Wade by pretty much every single advanced statistical barometer: PER, WS, WS/48, BPM and VORP. Also, '11 Wade was the second best player on his own team. It's pretty hard to make a case for '11 Wade over '09 Wade when he's not even the best player on his own team, and he was a statistically inferior player.


  15. #75
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    Which of the following would you All consider the best season?

    Player A: 33-3-7.5-2 on 25.3 shots .54TS% 25.9 PER 8.8 OWS 1.8 DWS 10.6WS 5.8OBPM -1DBPM 4.8BPM 5.3VORP .165 WS/48

    Team record: 38-44
    Season outcome: didn’t make the playoffs

    Player B: 18.8-4-10.5 on 13.4 FGA .632TS% 23.3 PER 10.3OWS 2.1DWS 12.4WS 5.7OBPM -.7DBPM 5.0BPM 4.9 VORP .212 WS/48

    Team record: 58-24
    Season outcome: Won MVP and lost in the WCF.

    Player 3: 27.2-5.7-6.7-2-1 on 18.8 shots .577 TS% 27.6PER 10.2OWS 4.2DWS 14.4WS 5.9OBPM 1.8DBPM 7.7BPM 7.1 VORP .239 WS/48

    Team record: 52-30
    Season outcome: championship and finals mvp

    Player D: 35.4-5.3-4.5-1.8 on 27.2 shots .559TS% 28.0 PER 11.6OWS 3.7DWS 15.3WS 7.4OBPM .2DBPM 7.6BPM 8.0 VORP .224 WS/48

    Team record: 45-37
    Season outcome: 1st round exit

    Player E: 31.4-7-6.6-1.6-1 on 23.1 shots .569TS% 28.1 PER 12.0OWS 4.3 DWS 16.3 WS 7.5 OBPM 1.6DBPM 9.1BPM 9.4 VORP .232 WS/48

    Team record:50-32
    Season outcome: 2nd round exit
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

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