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  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    That depends, can you be impartial to AA based on his drafts, trades and signings record and not solely judge him on his play-off appearance? I can also go into his trade record which is about .500 too (let us not forget his first trade of Halladay for 2 nothings and D'Arnaud) and how JP's players JB and EE lead us to the playoffs.
    If this FO doesn't make the playoffs you're going to say they're successful?

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    That depends, can you be impartial to AA based on his drafts, trades and signings record and not solely judge him on his play-off appearance? I can also go into his trade record which is about .500 too (let us not forget his first trade of Halladay for 2 nothings and D'Arnaud) and how JP's players JB and EE lead us to the playoffs.
    I had completely forgotten about this until now but AA actually DFA’d Edwin as well.

  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    The really good thing about Vlad's numbers is that even while he is struggling badly, his OPS is still over .700. He really needs to get his butt in shape.
    Ha, Prince Fielder 2.0?

    How would you consider Vladdy compared to Big Papi and Big Hurt in terms of shape? I think the latter two were more muscular, no?

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    Ha, Prince Fielder 2.0?

    How would you consider Vladdy compared to Big Papi and Big Hurt in terms of shape? I think the latter two were more muscular, no?
    Vlad is too young to compare to those grown men imo. At least my memory of them is of when they were 35+

  5. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    If this FO doesn't make the playoffs you're going to say they're successful?
    At tis rate it looks like they will this season. If this FO or the next one does yes.

    It's like saying AA took the Jays to the playoffs by himself with out giving JP credit for JB or EE. much like 2016, I give credit to both AA and Atkins because they were both responsible for it. The only front office (in my generation) I consider a complete failure was Gord Ash's.

    Much like if Vlad pans out like he should it's 20/80 AA/Atkins. One part for signing him the other for developing him.

  6. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    Ha, Prince Fielder 2.0?

    How would you consider Vladdy compared to Big Papi and Big Hurt in terms of shape? I think the latter two were more muscular, no?
    Papi and Prince were muscular and gut heavy, Vlad seems to be gut and *** heavy.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    The point I'm trying to make is the offense shouldn't depend on one player. If the Jays lose Vlad to injury and the rest of the team cannot pickup the slack what happens? Does the same thing happen to the Yankees when they lose Judge? If this offense is so dependent on one player the FO needs to do a better job at bringing in offensive depth to hedge the eventual injury to a star player. I don't know why you're bringing up the Angel's pitching when we're discussing offense btw.

    Vlad's career BB/K ratio is fine. Look at EE and Bautista before they brokeout. They were around the same area. Look at Grich and Teo their BB/K are far worse and sit in the bottom of the league for the past couple of seasons for starting position players.

    I'm not sure how long you've been looking at this forum but this point, especially with Grich, was argued to death that even supporters of Grich are leaning towards not him being a starter. Long story short the sample size on Grich for this year vs. his career is short.

    In a short season I wouldn't be surprised to see Grich and Teo end up over 100+ OPS. We haven't seen them preform like this for the marathon of a full season and I don't believe it's going to change based on their pitch recognition.
    I brought up the Angel's pitching to prove that wasn't their offenses futility but the pitching as to why their team struggled (and still do to this day), as you claimed out their offense was at the bottom (when it was middle of the league) but their pitching was in the basement which is why they struggled.

    I have also stated (if you read my previous posts) Grich needs to boost up his value so we can trade that contract. I've also said I'd want neither them or Tellez going forward on this team unless they consistently improve. However, I will praise them for their approach and the changes they made to be successful this year.

    As for comparing Vlad BB/K ratio to JB or EE when they broke out is pointless as neither had the numbers Vlad posted in the minors. Vlad didn't need a break out he needed to keep his consistency as he came up, which is why I compare his hitting trajectory more to Trout than JB or EE, as they weren't expected to do what they did.
    Last edited by Chaotic98; 08-21-2020 at 11:23 PM.

  8. #413
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    We need to stop pitching to Brendan Lowe. We need to either just pitch boarder-line pitches on all his at bats or just walk him, he's destroying Jays' pitchers this year.

    With that said, the Jays are on a 6 game winning streak, 3 games over .500 and 3 games up on their WC spot
    Last edited by Chaotic98; 08-21-2020 at 11:26 PM.

  9. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    I brought up the Angel's pitching to prove that wasn't their offenses futility but the pitching as to why their team struggled (and still do to this day), as you claimed out their offense was at the bottom (when it was middle of the league) but their pitching was in the basement which is why they struggled.

    I have also stated (if you read my previous posts) Grich needs to boost up his value so we can trade that contract. I've also said I'd want neither them or Tellez going forward on this team unless they consistently improve. However, I will praise them for their approach and the changes they made to be successful this year.

    As for comparing Vlad BB/K ratio to JB or EE when they broke out is pointless as neither had the numbers Vlad posted in the minors. Vlad didn't need a break out he needed to keep his consistency as he came up, which is why I compare his hitting trajectory more to Trout than JB or EE, as they weren't expected to do what they did.
    Chaotic out here throwing haymakers at the Darth Atkins haters. Full on shutting down FL’s attempts to divert.

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    I brought up the Angel's pitching to prove that wasn't their offenses futility but the pitching as to why their team struggled (and still do to this day), as you claimed out their offense was at the bottom (when it was middle of the league) but their pitching was in the basement which is why they struggled.

    I have also stated (if you read my previous posts) Grich needs to boost up his value so we can trade that contract. I've also said I'd want neither them or Tellez going forward on this team unless they consistently improve. However, I will praise them for their approach and the changes they made to be successful this year.

    As for comparing Vlad BB/K ratio to JB or EE when they broke out is pointless as neither had the numbers Vlad posted in the minors. Vlad didn't need a break out he needed to keep his consistency as he came up, which is why I compare his hitting trajectory more to Trout than JB or EE, as they weren't expected to do what they did.
    With regards to the Angels I'm still confused about your comparison. Folks are complaining about the Jays offense and blaming it on Vlad. My argument is that the Angels in 2016 had the MVP and were 12th out of 15th in runs scored (not run prevention); I'm not sure how pitching factors in here. I'd say the Angels are usually middle of the pack instead of top five for two reasons (without looking): One is they don't have consistent offensive depth throughout the lineup and two is they cannot get men on base.

    Not sure if you're a fan of WAR but the reason Biggio posted a 2.9 WAR in his rookie year while struggling to hit for average is partially because of a great walk rate. Hernandez and Grichuk are held down because of this. If they can consistently maintain this power the walks may come, but based on their BB/K ratios (bottom 5th or 6th league in ML) around the league I can't see them becoming the players like Bats and EE. I believe guys like Biggio will help this team more offensively than guys like Grichuk and Hernandez.

    I really don't care about Grich at this point. We've seen him have these bursts before and hot months. Heck Pillar was a monster player for the past two April's with taking walks and hitting everything that comes to him. If I can see this I'm sure other teams will see this as well as far as trade value goes. I wouldn't label these guys "successful" unless they can prove they can do it over a full season, not just over a hot month that skews their stats in a short season.

    Comparing BB/K is not pointless to me. It is a great indicator of pitch recognition and whether we should be "worried" about Vlad. If Vlad were posting a ratio in The Show like Moncado I'd definitely be worried. He's not, so yes I see a comparable trajectory with Vlad as I do with Trout.

  11. #416
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    Suddenly it's a 6 game win streak. This season has been a roller coaster.

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    At tis rate it looks like they will this season. If this FO or the next one does yes.

    It's like saying AA took the Jays to the playoffs by himself with out giving JP credit for JB or EE. much like 2016, I give credit to both AA and Atkins because they were both responsible for it. The only front office (in my generation) I consider a complete failure was Gord Ash's.

    Much like if Vlad pans out like he should it's 20/80 AA/Atkins. One part for signing him the other for developing him.
    I would like to continue to discuss/debate prior regimes such as AA but I don't have the time to do so (work and personal projects). AA actually did give JP credit.

    Wouldn't mind Ash with the Jays in an assistant role. He did sign Clemens and drafted some decent players in Hudson, Rios, Wells, Lopez, Young, and Halladay. Not pairing these guys with Carpenter, Escobar, and Delgado hurt him.

  13. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    With regards to the Angels I'm still confused about your comparison. Folks are complaining about the Jays offense and blaming it on Vlad. My argument is that the Angels in 2016 had the MVP and were 12th out of 15th in runs scored (not run prevention); I'm not sure how pitching factors in here. I'd say the Angels are usually middle of the pack instead of top five for two reasons (without looking): One is they don't have consistent offensive depth throughout the lineup and two is they cannot get men on base.

    Not sure if you're a fan of WAR but the reason Biggio posted a 2.9 WAR in his rookie year while struggling to hit for average is partially because of a great walk rate. Hernandez and Grichuk are held down because of this. If they can consistently maintain this power the walks may come, but based on their BB/K ratios (bottom 5th or 6th league in ML) around the league I can't see them becoming the players like Bats and EE. I believe guys like Biggio will help this team more offensively than guys like Grichuk and Hernandez.

    I really don't care about Grich at this point. We've seen him have these bursts before and hot months. Heck Pillar was a monster player for the past two April's with taking walks and hitting everything that comes to him. If I can see this I'm sure other teams will see this as well as far as trade value goes. I wouldn't label these guys "successful" unless they can prove they can do it over a full season, not just over a hot month that skews their stats in a short season.

    Comparing BB/K is not pointless to me. It is a great indicator of pitch recognition and whether we should be "worried" about Vlad. If Vlad were posting a ratio in The Show like Moncado I'd definitely be worried. He's not, so yes I see a comparable trajectory with Vlad as I do with Trout.
    The ghost of pillar also haunts me when I try to be optimistic about grich any teoscar. I really had hope in pillar every year. He was my under the radar prospect that I loved all the way through the system.

  14. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    The ghost of pillar also haunts me when I try to be optimistic about grich any teoscar. I really had hope in pillar every year. He was my under the radar prospect that I loved all the way through the system.
    He always had that 2-3 week stretch on fire didn't he?

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    He always had that 2-3 week stretch on fire didn't he?
    Every ****ing year. And every ****ing year I was like “this is the year boys!”

    I still think that his issue was focus. ADD of sorts where he could come in with the talent and focus, but the focus on his new approach would slowly subside as the AB’s piled up. A little Ritalin and he could have been a HOF imo.

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