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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I think your missing my point. Rebuilding teams don't look to trade for proven MLB talent so that's probably part of the reason why there's been no one come back who's put up back to back above replacement level years before being traded. While Atkins has been shrewd in his reading, I'll agree he's never landed a big player via trade, and it's something that he will have to do. I just think it's disingenuous to criticize him for not bringing in impactful players via trade because that wasn't the M.O. for the first three or four years. But he's going to have to do it soon and it appears it'll be a bat.

    From your other post:

    I'm not really following what you're saying about two prospects above AAA. Are you talking about Kevin Smith? Because he sucks and Pearson is essentially a non prospect now. Also, they just graduated how many young guys in the last year in the half. I'm fine with the Bisons not having any stars on it for a year or two.

    I agree with getting a couple of bats. I'd take Martinez and Springer in a heartbeat though I'd be leary about giving Springer anything over 5 years.

    I'm not going to worry much about the D yet. Bo never really profiled as a SS to me, I'd say either Groshans or Martin are the SS of the future. Slide Bo over to second and put Biggio in the OF. If that's the case, either Biggio or Gurriel will have to be able to prove they can play RF
    My point with the trades is that these guys haven't really found any "diamonds in the rough" so to speak. As far as two prospects above A+, Pearson is still considered a prospect even though he's in The Show. These guys promised "waves of talent" coming through the farm and after graduating talent you would hope to see more than just two guys above A+ ball especially with all the talent that is being hoarded. Tellez, Jansen, Mcguire, Biggio (even though I'm a fan of his I don't think he was ranked very high) really don't move the farm system needle as much as Vlad and Bichette individually. The Braves graduated studs like Acuna and Soroka and still have a borderline exceptional/excellent farm - you'd kind of expect the Jays to be somewhere in the same stratosphere. Look at the Dodgers - elite farm waves of talent. Rays to a lessor extent because they haven't graduated much.

    I'm not sure about Groshans at SS. He's still in A ball so how many years until he makes it to the show? That cuts into Vlad + Bo's service time. Plus I though Groshans was a 3B, his minor league SS fielding stats do not look very good albeit the sample is limited. I'm not so sure he's an above average defender at SS.

    As much as I like Springer he's not that contact guy this lineup needs like Martinez, Cast, Markakis. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Hernandez has a season or two like Springer's 2016 season. These guys need players that can cut down on the K's and get on base.

    With the limited talent above A ball I think these guys are playing a dangerous game because A) prospects further down are a huge unknown and betting on them can be risky and B) lower level prospects will take longer to reach the show to join Vlad and Bichette whose service time is ticking. With better prospects in AA ball and above there is a little more certainty that you'll have Major League caliber players joining the big club and soon.
    Last edited by FLeays; 08-08-2020 at 07:25 PM.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Open mouth. Insert foot.
    Love it. They finally listened. They got hammered in the media for first sitting Teoscar and then batting him at the bottom of the order after getting off to such a great start. The Red Sox announcers just said it was a head scratchier.

    Unfortunately it won't last - they did the same thing last season but then there he is again batting in the top of the order, last season he batted 3rd the final 6 games and put up BA .217, OBP 250 in those 6 games.

    With the shortened season everything is magnified - there is no room for this kind of incompetence.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    When you say Atkins trades are "awesome" you make it seem like he traded hot garbage for premium returns. When you mean awesome tell me who contributed at in "The Show" significantly? Isn't that what counts? So until we start seeing garbage flipped for something that helps the club then no his trades are not "awesome." I've already listed the two players the Jays that have contributed somewhat in the Majors, I want to know who else did. Trading garbage for better garbage is not "awesome."

    Good to see the Jays in the top 10, after what 4+ years of stockpiling talent. Farm is still not considered "elite." That is kind of pathetic, how long does it take to build an elite farm when acquiring so many assets. I guess you can argue they graduated Bichette, Vlad, and Biggio and then again I guess you do have to graduate some players like Acuna, Sano, Tatis, etc.

    Also according to MLB Pipeline the Jays are not a top 10 farm, which is pathetic. Nor are they one here. They sit at 10 here.
    No I don't. I think his trades are awesome because he trades hot garbage for players who have actually made it to the Show and are now contributing. That alone makes those trades awesome. He turned Drew Hutchison into Liriano, Teoscar and McGuire for crying out loud. I know none of them are stars but that trade is still incredible because Drew Hutchison is a minor leaguer. He got pieces that helped immediately and in the future for him.

    You didn't highlight any of the players he traded away after I started the list off with Donaldson. Why is that? Don't you want to highlight the players he traded away that you were expecting to bring top notch returns? After all, you're disappointed with what he got so why not bring up who he traded away? And yes, it is hard to build an elite farm when the best player you had to trade away was Marcus Stroman over the past 4 years but hey, Atkins managed to do it.

    Oh and the farm is elite. After names like Vladdy, Bichette, Biggio, McGuire and Jansen all graduating last year they still managed to stay in the top 10. If that's not elite then I don't know what is?
    Last edited by R. Johnson#3; 08-08-2020 at 10:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  4. #169
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    Kay put in some solid work tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  5. #170
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    1/5 of the way through the season and Vladdy is off to another slow start. He absolutely has to be DHing and doing nothing else because he needs to get his bat going.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    Love it. They finally listened. They got hammered in the media for first sitting Teoscar and then batting him at the bottom of the order after getting off to such a great start. The Red Sox announcers just said it was a head scratchier.

    Unfortunately it won't last - they did the same thing last season but then there he is again batting in the top of the order, last season he batted 3rd the final 6 games and put up BA .217, OBP 250 in those 6 games.

    With the shortened season everything is magnified - there is no room for this kind of incompetence.
    I was just being a smart ***. I actually wondered later if they read your post lol. Shapiro has admitted to reading public forums.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I was just being a smart ***. I actually wondered later if they read your post lol. Shapiro has admitted to reading public forums.
    Yea I know, figured that after I posted.

    If Teoscar stays this hot this might be the "regular" batting order moving forward. Especially now that Fisher and Alford are basically out of the picture.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    No I don't. I think his trades are awesome because he trades hot garbage for players who have actually made it to the Show and are now contributing. That alone makes those trades awesome. He turned Drew Hutchison into Liriano, Teoscar and McGuire for crying out loud. I know none of them are stars but that trade is still incredible because Drew Hutchison is a minor leaguer. He got pieces that helped immediately and in the future for him.

    You didn't highlight any of the players he traded away after I started the list off with Donaldson. Why is that? Don't you want to highlight the players he traded away that you were expecting to bring top notch returns? After all, you're disappointed with what he got so why not bring up who he traded away? And yes, it is hard to build an elite farm when the best player you had to trade away was Marcus Stroman over the past 4 years but hey, Atkins managed to do it.

    Oh and the farm is elite. After names like Vladdy, Bichette, Biggio, McGuire and Jansen all graduating last year they still managed to stay in the top 10. If that's not elite then I don't know what is?
    Ok. So who is contributing that these guys picked up via trade and tell me which of them would be a starter on the likes of the Astros or Nationals? Oh and post their WAR please. WAR is a great indicator of how a player is contributing in The Show. Yeah I'm so excited about Teoscar and McGuire I mean they are the second coming of Posada and Bernie Williams!!!! I can't believe we got these perennial all-stars for nothing!!! Shoot the Yankees and Astros sure wish they could have them on their team and are probably kicking themselves that the Jays got them for NOTHING!!!

    You do understand that these guys are contributing on a $#!++y team right? So does that make these players awesome? If they were contributing and the Jays had a record like the Yankees (*cough* Gio Urshela), Nats, Astros, Dodgers then yeah that'd be great!! If the Jays BP can continue into next season what they are doing through the first few games I'll be a believer.

    Players that were traded: Diaz, Donaldson, Sogard, Happ, Pillar and the best that he could bring back was the $10M man Randall "OMG" Grichuk!!! Remind me how the Jays picked up Jose Bautista again? This example right here shows you can acquire "diamonds in the rough." In other words you don't need grade A players to land an MLB caliber player that can produce an all-star level WAR.

    Who are Zeuch and Wormoth again? Oh yeah players that Atkins squandered 1st round picks for. Yes it is hard to build an elite farm when these guys are wasted as 1st rounders.

    Link me some recent (like last 6 months) articles that shows the Jays having a top 5 farm? I gave you a couple of sites that show the Jays outside or hovering around the 10 spot. An elite farm is a consensus top 5. Do any publications even have this farm in the top 3? You've got to go back quite a few seasons for that. You really think the Jays are in league with great farms like the Rays, Braves, Dodgers? There are publications that agree those are elite farms - sorry Jays aren't mentioned in the same paragraph. Tell me which prospects above A+ ball are great prospects other than Nate Pearson? Look at the elite farms they are brimming with players above A+ ball. Soroka and Acuna graduated the Braves system and they have not just a top 10 farm but a top 5 farm. That shows you can graduate players and still maintain an elite farm. I believe the Dodgers have graduated good players (I'll have to double check) and still maintain a top 3 farm.

    McGuire, Jansen, Biggio didn't move the farm ranking needle much (maybe argue Jansen). They didn't when they were in the Jays farm and all of a sudden they would have now?

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I was just being a smart ***. I actually wondered later if they read your post lol. Shapiro has admitted to reading public forums.
    I'd be interested to see this article. Do you have a link by chance? I'm guessing it's the main Blue Jays forum on the MLB website.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    I'd be interested to see this article. Do you have a link by chance? I'm guessing it's the main Blue Jays forum on the MLB website.
    I don't, it was someone here that posted it, maybe Pelfry? It was dating back to his Cleveland days. Something about how he would check the "sticky" threads.

  11. #176
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    Gotta get some bats. Again, pitchers did a fine job. At this point, giving up only 3 after 8. Shoe looked good.

    Edit: Spoke too soon. Made it through 8 2/3 with 3 runs, then gave up the jack.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    Ok. So who is contributing that these guys picked up via trade and tell me which of them would be a starter on the likes of the Astros or Nationals? Oh and post their WAR please. WAR is a great indicator of how a player is contributing in The Show. Yeah I'm so excited about Teoscar and McGuire I mean they are the second coming of Posada and Bernie Williams!!!! I can't believe we got these perennial all-stars for nothing!!! Shoot the Yankees and Astros sure wish they could have them on their team and are probably kicking themselves that the Jays got them for NOTHING!!!

    You do understand that these guys are contributing on a $#!++y team right? So does that make these players awesome? If they were contributing and the Jays had a record like the Yankees (*cough* Gio Urshela), Nats, Astros, Dodgers then yeah that'd be great!! If the Jays BP can continue into next season what they are doing through the first few games I'll be a believer.

    Players that were traded: Diaz, Donaldson, Sogard, Happ, Pillar and the best that he could bring back was the $10M man Randall "OMG" Grichuk!!! Remind me how the Jays picked up Jose Bautista again? This example right here shows you can acquire "diamonds in the rough." In other words you don't need grade A players to land an MLB caliber player that can produce an all-star level WAR.

    Who are Zeuch and Wormoth again? Oh yeah players that Atkins squandered 1st round picks for. Yes it is hard to build an elite farm when these guys are wasted as 1st rounders.

    Link me some recent (like last 6 months) articles that shows the Jays having a top 5 farm? I gave you a couple of sites that show the Jays outside or hovering around the 10 spot. An elite farm is a consensus top 5. Do any publications even have this farm in the top 3? You've got to go back quite a few seasons for that. You really think the Jays are in league with great farms like the Rays, Braves, Dodgers? There are publications that agree those are elite farms - sorry Jays aren't mentioned in the same paragraph. Tell me which prospects above A+ ball are great prospects other than Nate Pearson? Look at the elite farms they are brimming with players above A+ ball. Soroka and Acuna graduated the Braves system and they have not just a top 10 farm but a top 5 farm. That shows you can graduate players and still maintain an elite farm. I believe the Dodgers have graduated good players (I'll have to double check) and still maintain a top 3 farm.

    McGuire, Jansen, Biggio didn't move the farm ranking needle much (maybe argue Jansen). They didn't when they were in the Jays farm and all of a sudden they would have now?
    You're missing my point. I was never expecting superstars talent/prospects to come back in return for names like Pillar, Martin, Happ, Morales, Loup, Sanchez, Leone, Diaz, Biagini, A domestic abuser currently serving a suspension for being an abuser, Oh, Granderson etc. This is the reason I wanted you to highlight the players who were traded away and this is also why you were so reluctant to do so. If you're upset because they were unable to build a championship team by trading away those players along with inheriting a farm with absolutely nothing after Vlad Jr then I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, the return on some of those players whiffed but that's not a big deal to me considering the players being dealt away were already horrible. If the return on Stroman is a whiff then that will be a problem but I've got high hopes on that one.

    You're also missing my point on the farm and even went as far to highlight everyone except the #1 and #8 prospect in all of baseball that graduated. Usually when a farm loses the #1 and #8 prospect in all of baseball along with the other pieces that you mentioned they experience a fall. These guys maintained a spot in the top 10. That is why the farm is elite. We clearly disagree on this. Repeating yourself and ignoring what I'm saying won't convince me to join your side. I never mentioned anything about them being top 5 so I'm not really going to put in work to try and help you prove a point that I never said nor argued.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    inheriting a farm with absolutely nothing after Vlad Jr
    You always forget about Jansen.

    Without Pearson this will be a bottom 10 farm.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    You always forget about Jansen.

    Without Pearson this will be a bottom 10 farm.
    Let's stop moving the goal posts, WrongInc. It was fun watching posters like hanton, FL and yourself kick and scream as Atkins system continued to develop but I'm done with it for now. You'll be wrong about this one again and then you'll say something about Ben Cherington being responsible for drafting guys or something like that. It's been entertaining but I'm satisfied.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Let's stop moving the goal posts, WrongInc. It was fun watching posters like hanton, FL and yourself kick and scream as Atkins system continued to develop but I'm done with it for now. You'll be wrong about this one again and then you'll say something about Ben Cherington being responsible for drafting guys or something like that. It's been entertaining but I'm satisfied.
    You can say this when Atkins builds a winning team for the first time in his career. So far you are the only one who has been wrong.

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