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  1. #196
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    They have some tough losses here people, but lets not get it twisted. They are losing because they aren't hitting. They actually have the makings of one of the best bullpens in baseball .... The Gooch, Elmer Font and Sammy G have sucked an entire bag of donky dinks, but these guys looks have looked great:

    Bass- 0.00
    Romano- 0.00
    Borucki- 0.00
    Waguespack- 0.00
    Cole- 0.00
    Kay- 1.13
    Hatch- 3.38
    Dolis- 3.00


    Those 8 guys have combined for 50+ IP and have been brilliant. If I was the Bluejays I would be waiving/sitting guys like Yamaguchi, Font and Gaviglio right now and focusing on those 8 arms out of the bullpen. ...(and also Giles and Thornton/Anderson when Giles and Thornton return from the IL .)


    This is a big week for the Jays. They need to win and score some runs these next 2 games with Ryu and Pearson going against the Marlins before the Rays and that pitching staff come to Buffalo.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    They have some tough losses here people, but lets not get it twisted. They are losing because they aren't hitting. They actually have the makings of one of the best bullpens in baseball .... The Gooch, Elmer Font and Sammy G have sucked an entire bag of donky dinks, but these guys looks have looked great:

    Bass- 0.00
    Romano- 0.00
    Borucki- 0.00
    Waguespack- 0.00
    Cole- 0.00
    Kay- 1.13
    Hatch- 3.38
    Dolis- 3.00


    Those 8 guys have combined for 50+ IP and have been brilliant. If I was the Bluejays I would be waiving/sitting guys like Yamaguchi, Font and Gaviglio right now and focusing on those 8 arms out of the bullpen. ...(and also Giles and Thornton/Anderson when Giles and Thornton return from the IL .)


    This is a big week for the Jays. They need to win and score some runs these next 2 games with Ryu and Pearson going against the Marlins before the Rays and that pitching staff come to Buffalo.
    I agree we have had some good early seasons from some of those BP pieces.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    They have some tough losses here people, but lets not get it twisted. They are losing because they aren't hitting. They actually have the makings of one of the best bullpens in baseball .... The Gooch, Elmer Font and Sammy G have sucked an entire bag of donky dinks, but these guys looks have looked great:

    Bass- 0.00
    Romano- 0.00
    Borucki- 0.00
    Waguespack- 0.00
    Cole- 0.00
    Kay- 1.13
    Hatch- 3.38
    Dolis- 3.00


    Those 8 guys have combined for 50+ IP and have been brilliant. If I was the Bluejays I would be waiving/sitting guys like Yamaguchi, Font and Gaviglio right now and focusing on those 8 arms out of the bullpen. ...(and also Giles and Thornton/Anderson when Giles and Thornton return from the IL .)


    This is a big week for the Jays. They need to win and score some runs these next 2 games with Ryu and Pearson going against the Marlins before the Rays and that pitching staff come to Buffalo.
    The BP has been a pleasant surprise. The golden boy Romano seems to be coming through and personally I really like Borucki in the pen. Borucki has potential set up man or maybe even closer potential. Wags is another piece I'd like to see kept in the pen too. I still have hopes for Kay as a starter but he looked good over 3 innings the other night. If 3 or 4 arms emerge from this group for next season then that would be a huge plus. Anthony Bass has been the biggest shock though. Dude is all about generating weak contact.

    Right now it looks like we might have multiple guys with late inning kind of stuff. Borucki, Bass and Romano are the guys I'm mainly talking about. I agree on trimming the fat (Gaviglio, Yamaguchi and Font) and rolling with those 8 for now. Borucki and Romano have some swing and miss stuff while Bass just appears to be a really good pitcher. If even 1 of those guys emerges as a back end bullpen piece then it's a huge win.
    Last edited by R. Johnson#3; 08-11-2020 at 01:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    You're missing my point. I was never expecting superstars talent/prospects to come back in return for names like Pillar, Martin, Happ, Morales, Loup, Sanchez, Leone, Diaz, Biagini, A domestic abuser currently serving a suspension for being an abuser, Oh, Granderson etc. This is the reason I wanted you to highlight the players who were traded away and this is also why you were so reluctant to do so. If you're upset because they were unable to build a championship team by trading away those players along with inheriting a farm with absolutely nothing after Vlad Jr then I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, the return on some of those players whiffed but that's not a big deal to me considering the players being dealt away were already horrible. If the return on Stroman is a whiff then that will be a problem but I've got high hopes on that one.

    You're also missing my point on the farm and even went as far to highlight everyone except the #1 and #8 prospect in all of baseball that graduated. Usually when a farm loses the #1 and #8 prospect in all of baseball along with the other pieces that you mentioned they experience a fall. These guys maintained a spot in the top 10. That is why the farm is elite. We clearly disagree on this. Repeating yourself and ignoring what I'm saying won't convince me to join your side. I never mentioned anything about them being top 5 so I'm not really going to put in work to try and help you prove a point that I never said nor argued.
    The reason the farm was never elite even with the number 1 and 8 prospect in all of baseball because they had no additional farm depth!! I've already argued this point, and posted links to this, and it's the reason why the Jays only have Nate Pearson as the next big league prospect.

    I've highlighted several players and not one fetched a decent spec and showed you it is possible to acquire a superstar in Bautista for nothing!!

    Again look at the Dodgers, Braves, Rays, Padres, and even White Sox (who graduated 4 very nice prospects) and they have guys who may make The Show soon after graduating other players to the farm. Those are elite farms - consistent depth. If the Jays farm was elite we'd have more guys ready to make the show than just Pearson.

    When I heard "waves of talent" I expect the majority of the rotation to be from the farm. Roark, Ryu, Anderson all came through other clubs. I'm happy with the acquisitions of these starters, but it's not what we were told was going to happen. Now we have the Stroman trade specs and Manoa as the next guys coming through the system and they are 3 years away when they should have really been 1 year away.

    Keep thinking these guys a great farm. It was top heavy with no depth or supporting specs. That's what happens when your first rounders are wasted on the likes of Zeuch and Wormoth. Nuff said. Respond if you'd like, I'm done.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    The reason the farm was never elite even with the number 1 and 8 prospect in all of baseball because they had no additional farm depth!! I've already argued this point, and posted links to this, and it's the reason why the Jays only have Nate Pearson as the next big league prospect.

    I've highlighted several players and not one fetched a decent spec and showed you it is possible to acquire a superstar in Bautista for nothing!!

    Again look at the Dodgers, Braves, Rays, Padres, and even White Sox (who graduated 4 very nice prospects) and they have guys who may make The Show soon after graduating other players to the farm. Those are elite farms - consistent depth. If the Jays farm was elite we'd have more guys ready to make the show than just Pearson.

    When I heard "waves of talent" I expect the majority of the rotation to be from the farm. Roark, Ryu, Anderson all came through other clubs. I'm happy with the acquisitions of these starters, but it's not what we were told was going to happen. Now we have the Stroman trade specs and Manoa as the next guys coming through the system and they are 3 years away when they should have really been 1 year away.

    Keep thinking these guys a great farm. It was top heavy with no depth or supporting specs. That's what happens when your first rounders are wasted on the likes of Zeuch and Wormoth. Nuff said. Respond if you'd like, I'm done.
    I like how you only chose to highlight 2 out of a possible 6 first round picks. Why not the other 4? Definitely no bias in your posting. Keep on hating for the sake of hating
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Covid really messed things up this year, bit to say there's limited talent above A ball is a laughable statement. Even if youre counting Pearson, that's him, Groshans, Martin, Kirk, SWR and maybe Manoah who would all be in AA or above. Martin will be the the third top ten overall prospect, if he's not promoted before then. We have just promoted the first draftees of this FO last year. Things could change but anyone critical of the drafting of this FO is barking up the wrong tree.

    On a recent B.A. podcast they named the two teams in each league with the most promising future and they picked the Jays. These guys have built something that could be special, he's gonna have to be able to add MLB talent, something that wasn't his MO as of yet. I'm not expecting much during the season, mainly for Covid reasons but I would like to see a deal in the off-season.
    I'm critical of this FO because I'm not seeing any depth to this farm at the upper levels. You got a really nice spec in Bichette and another one in Pearson...and then...maybe Biggio? Where is the depth? That's why these guys are usually towards the middle of the pack when farm systems are released. I don't think these guys drafted better than the likes of the Dodgers, Rays, White Sox, Giants, Braves, Twins and DBacks since they took over in 2016. And I've said this before, wasting 1st rounders on Logan Wormoth and TJ Zeuch is not good.

    That's nice that B.A. has the Jays as a "promising" team. I also remember the MLB Network having a special segment in 2016 on Thor (with the Mets) and Aaron Sanchez as the premier pitchers in each league. How is that looking now?

    Sure COVID messes things up. The Jays aren't the only team dealing with COVID. I think Groshans would have started A ball this year, Manoah at Lansing(?). Kirk and SWR (who wasn't drafted) probably starting at AA. I'm not seeing SWR or Kirk on MLB top 100 prospect rankings, although SWR was there in February. Groshans(82), Martinez(92), and SWR(77) are on fangraphs top 100 rankings. I'm not sure how folks will respond to that since fangraphs was roasted when I linked fangraphs having the 27th best farm system a couple of years ago.

  7. #202
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    Today is Ryu's 3rd start as a Jay. He needs to be dominant

    6 IP
    7 K's
    2 Hits
    2 BB
    1 Run

    Hopefully Montoyo goes with the same batting order - want to see some consistency.
    Bass, Romano as the high leverage guys out of the pen
    Borucki, Kay as the bridge to the 8th or can even be used if Bass and Romano are not available.
    Don't want to see Drury or Fisher at all unless absolutely necessary.

    Jays currently sit 27th overall in hitting. Orioles (yes the O's), Yankees are top 5 in the league. As one Yogi Berra used to say "Its getting late early”.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    And this is why I am still waiting. Many failed GM’s were able to stock a farm while dismantling a team.

    Atkins will get my praise when he first builds a winning team, then again when he makes the playoffs, and gain GOAT status if he can win more than 2 championships.
    And that's totally fair.

    Take Vlad for example. I fully expect him to figure it out but the dude looks fat and lost. Bichette looks like he's at home and I've missed both of Pearson's starts but his stats look decent against ATL and good against WASH. But I agree totally, if these specs start to fail then I'll lead the fire Atkins train because that's been their M.O. and don't get me wrong, I'm not ready to anoint him anything and understand there's a lot of work to be done. But insofar as how the drafting and developing goes, I don't think there's much anyone can complain so far. And that's all that really matters to me

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    I'm critical of this FO because I'm not seeing any depth to this farm at the upper levels. You got a really nice spec in Bichette and another one in Pearson...and then...maybe Biggio? Where is the depth? That's why these guys are usually towards the middle of the pack when farm systems are released. I don't think these guys drafted better than the likes of the Dodgers, Rays, White Sox, Giants, Braves, Twins and DBacks since they took over in 2016. And I've said this before, wasting 1st rounders on Logan Wormoth and TJ Zeuch is not good.

    That's nice that B.A. has the Jays as a "promising" team. I also remember the MLB Network having a special segment in 2016 on Thor (with the Mets) and Aaron Sanchez as the premier pitchers in each league. How is that looking now?

    Sure COVID messes things up. The Jays aren't the only team dealing with COVID. I think Groshans would have started A ball this year, Manoah at Lansing(?). Kirk and SWR (who wasn't drafted) probably starting at AA. I'm not seeing SWR or Kirk on MLB top 100 prospect rankings, although SWR was there in February. Groshans(82), Martinez(92), and SWR(77) are on fangraphs top 100 rankings. I'm not sure how folks will respond to that since fangraphs was roasted when I linked fangraphs having the 27th best farm system a couple of years ago.
    I don't get how you don't think they have any top specs. They just graduated Biggio, Bichette, Pearson, two of which were top 10 prospects in all of baseball. They also have two more top 50 specs in Martin and Groshans ready to go. Not mention Woods-Richardson and Martinez as back end top 100 guys who are teenagers. If that's not a wave, I don't know what is. And yes, I understand that if tbe specs don't pan out then this is a failed experiment but to say that the Jays have no top end prospects,.outside of Pearson is ****ing ridiculous.

    I know it sounds bullish, but these guys could literally turn out four core players in four years drafted by this FO (Bichette, Pearson, Martin and Groshans). And that's not even including Biggio. A tad bit of respect should be given here
    Last edited by Kenny Powders; 08-11-2020 at 03:10 PM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    And that's totally fair.

    Take Vlad for example. I fully expect him to figure it out but the dude looks fat and lost. Bichette looks like he's at home and I've missed both of Pearson's starts but his stats look decent against ATL and good against WASH. But I agree totally, if these specs start to fail then I'll lead the fire Atkins train because that's been their M.O. and don't get me wrong, I'm not ready to anoint him anything and understand there's a lot of work to be done. But insofar as how the drafting and developing goes, I don't think there's much anyone can complain so far. And that's all that really matters to me
    Everything you said here makes sense to me. I have inflated expectations/demands on landing big names through trade because that is what we have to directly compete with from the Yankees and Sox.

    I think landing a serious contributor at the right time might have me leaning more favourably with Atkins. I’ve only seen the opposite (or failure to do the opposite).

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I don't get how you don't think they have any top specs. They just graduated Biggio, Bichette, Pearson, two of which were top 10 prospects in all of baseball. They also have two more top 50 specs in Martin and Groshans ready to go. Not mention Woods-Richardson and Martinez as back end top 100 guys who are teenagers. If that's not a wave, I don't know what is. And yes, I understand that if tbe specs don't pan out then this is a failed experiment but to say that the Jays have no top end prospects,.outside of Pearson is ****ing ridiculous.

    I know it sounds bullish, but these guys could literally turn out four core players in four years drafted by this FO (Bichette, Pearson, Martin and Groshans). And that's not even including Biggio. A tad bit of respect should be given here
    I still think they should sell high on groshans.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I don't get how you don't think they have any top specs. They just graduated Biggio, Bichette, Pearson, two of which were top 10 prospects in all of baseball. They also have two more top 50 specs in Martin and Groshans ready to go. Not mention Woods-Richardson and Martinez as back end top 100 guys who are teenagers. If that's not a wave, I don't know what is. And yes, I understand that if tbe specs don't pan out then this is a failed experiment but to say that the Jays have no top end prospects,.outside of Pearson is ****ing ridiculous.

    I know it sounds bullish, but these guys could literally turn out four core players in four years drafted by this FO (Bichette, Pearson, Martin and Groshans). And that's not even including Biggio. A tad bit of respect should be given here
    Can't give respect because we still have no idea what Pearson, Martin, and Groshans are. Could, would, should, blah. Thought Wormoth and Zeuch were supposed to be something. Now we're acting like Pearson, Martin, and Groshans are the equivalent to Keuchel, Springer, and Correa when they haven't even made it to the big leagues for crying out loud!!! Speaking of Groshans I can't find him in any top 50 prospect ranking. And thinking a 19 year who never played in Dunedien as "ready to go" is extremely bullish. Pearson could be Halladay or he can be Drabek or Appel, Martin could be Bregman/Correa or he can be Aiken/Bubba Starling. Ditto for Manoah and SWR.
    Do we even know if Groshans could play both side of the ball?

    I also never said the Jays don't have top specs I said they didn't have much farm depth at the mid/higher levels beyond Vlad and Bichette. One blue chip pitcher at AA/AAA is not depth. Look at the Dbacks, White Sox, Tigers, Dodgers, Rays, Braves, Padres and Twins farm - that's depth compared to the Jays farm. And before we whine about Vlad and Bichette not being in the farm again consider that the White Sox, Padres, Braves, and Dodgers all graduated some great prospects and still have solid prospects compared to the Jays.

    Also graduating talents like Hernandez, Biggio, Jansen, Mcguire, Tellez, Alford and proclaiming that is a "wave" of talent is asinine. They haven't done anything at the big leagues. Could they be great? Sure. Could they end up like Travis Snider? That's a possibility too. Just because they are Blue Jays prospects does not automatically mean they will pan out and I'm not seeing the talent just yet. The large amount of prospects turning out to be good in The Show like the Yankees of the 90's and the Astros prospects of today that worked doesn't happen very often. We can hope for a FO like the Dodgers or Rays where you get consistently good ball players but I'm not seeing that yet.

  13. #208
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    Gotta love Ryu giving he high fives. Finally some run support!!

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    Can't give respect because we still have no idea what Pearson, Martin, and Groshans are. Could, would, should, blah. Thought Wormoth and Zeuch were supposed to be something. Now we're acting like Pearson, Martin, and Groshans are the equivalent to Keuchel, Springer, and Correa when they haven't even made it to the big leagues for crying out loud!!! Speaking of Groshans I can't find him in any top 50 prospect ranking. And thinking a 19 year who never played in Dunedien as "ready to go" is extremely bullish. Pearson could be Halladay or he can be Drabek or Appel, Martin could be Bregman/Correa or he can be Aiken/Bubba Starling. Ditto for Manoah and SWR.
    Do we even know if Groshans could play both side of the ball?

    I also never said the Jays don't have top specs I said they didn't have much farm depth at the mid/higher levels beyond Vlad and Bichette. One blue chip pitcher at AA/AAA is not depth. Look at the Dbacks, White Sox, Tigers, Dodgers, Rays, Braves, Padres and Twins farm - that's depth compared to the Jays farm. And before we whine about Vlad and Bichette not being in the farm again consider that the White Sox, Padres, Braves, and Dodgers all graduated some great prospects and still have solid prospects compared to the Jays.

    Also graduating talents like Hernandez, Biggio, Jansen, Mcguire, Tellez, Alford and proclaiming that is a "wave" of talent is asinine. They haven't done anything at the big leagues. Could they be great? Sure. Could they end up like Travis Snider? That's a possibility too. Just because they are Blue Jays prospects does not automatically mean they will pan out and I'm not seeing the talent just yet. The large amount of prospects turning out to be good in The Show like the Yankees of the 90's and the Astros prospects of today that worked doesn't happen very often. We can hope for a FO like the Dodgers or Rays where you get consistently good ball players but I'm not seeing that yet.
    You were the one who said we have no talent above A ball. I just simply pointed out that we did. You can take that as you wish but this conversation has run it's course for me.

    Also, I think you're highly underestimating Martin. He was arguably the best player in a stacked draft class.
    Last edited by Kenny Powders; 08-11-2020 at 08:59 PM.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I still think they should sell high on groshans.
    If you could land a TORP like prospect like Mackenzie Gore or a younger established starter already in the bigs for some sort of deal involving Groshans + Kirk + a filler I'd definitely be interested. I just like the idea of a home grown left side of the IF and CF. Those are prime positions being filled by internal spots.
    Last edited by Kenny Powders; 08-11-2020 at 08:58 PM.

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