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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    Of course they lacked significant talent at certain positions, but again that not what the OP was saying or what I responded about from the original OP..

    The OP suggested they needed a Papelbon type that grabbed jerseys and fought guys to make them accountable.
    I disagreed and IMO suggested what they missed was guys like Ross and Lackey
    I agree with your take. When I said they needed a Papelbon, I meant they needed a vet who would hold players accountable, not someone who would ****** guys out in front of the camera or grab them by the throat. Yes guys like Ross and Lackey, you're absolutely right.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Youíre still missing the point. The point is that when you said the bold, you were still incorrect imo.

    They didnít really miss guys like Ross and Lackey nearly as much as they missed talent. Thatís the point. Itís not a Papelbon type they needed and itís not a Ross/Lackey type either. All of this attitude stuff is overplayed. I donít think itís completely meaningless, but at the end of the day they were short on talent. They were missing 2015-16 Jake and Lester and Dexter and Zobrist and a bench and a bullpen. Thatís why they lost. If they had better talent they would have won, even if they didnít have a Ross or Lackey. Ross and Lackey themselves were perceived as bad teammates at different points in their careers. Thereís no amount of leadership that can turn a mediocre team into a great one. They were great a few years ago, now they are much closer to mediocre than great. Thatís the problem.
    Talent aside as we both agree they lacked it in some areas and my response and the OP post had nothing to do with results on the field..

    That why I'm confused here by the argument against what I wrote


    The OP just mentioned that they needed an in your face type player like Papelbon, in which I disagreed with that type of player and said they dont need that type, they needed guys like Ross Lackey and Zobrist types as leaders.
    Maybe Lackey wasn't a good example

    This had nothing to do with how they played or why they struggled, as yes the lack of talent is the main reason, it was just my opinion of the type of leaders they miss in the clubhouse

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Then why was Madden fired? Then why has Theo been all over the team for its poor preparation and lack of accountability, and also the lack of urgency in 2018?

    Yes obviously the Cubs have had other issues in 2018 and 2019 in terms of talent, injuries etc., without a doubt. But attitude, accountability, preparation, leadership...these have all been issues too. Theo agrees with me.
    It was time for a change. Maddon and the team were ready to go a different way.

    You're just making **** up about a lack of preparation to suit what it is you want to see. Theres literally no proof. We have been over this.

    Its inane. Its asinine. Its stupid. But hey, if you want to believe that, go for it. But its literally not backed up by anything except your own mind.

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  4. #139
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    Oct 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Papelbon definitely could have handled it better I agree.



    Yeah he did call him out. Finally. Too little too late at that point. To the point that Theo came down on the team after exit interviews that year. Remember the whole "urgency" thing at the beginning of 2019? And to the point that Theo got rid of Madden and had to find a manager that held players properly accountable.



    Not in 2018 they didn't. Cubs got soft, that's a fact.
    Iím not responding to all your idiotic posts... you do know Maddon wasnít fired right? His contract was up. Just like we didnít let Nick Castellanos leave.. his contract was up and him coming back just didnít work out. Could another voice be good? Sure. Maybe.

    Also you remember 1 time that Javy or Contreras didnít hustle and now youíre saying they didnít play the game hard that year? They were soft? A year we won 95 games?! The same year Javy (soft Javy in your words) came in 2nd in MVP votes?! My god guy. This is quite the argument you just created.


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  5. #140
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    Nov 2014
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    11,543

    2020 Summer Camp Thread - Wrigley Field Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Talent isn't the reason the Cubs had horrible baserunning last year. Talent isn't the reason the Cubs had poor defensive fundamentals. Lack of preparation and leadership was. Bad baserunning doesn't show up in OPS and fWAR.

    Go ask Theo.
    Why not? Baserunning and defense are both talents. Of course they are. They are also both talents that tend to peak very early in a players career. Itís no surprise that players did worse in these areas as they got older. Thatís normal. The problem is there were no new players who excel in these areas.

    Go ask Theo if the 2019-2020 Cubs are as talented as the 2015-2017 Cubs. They arenít.

    If you donít have any money to spend itís a lot easier to go from a $7 million manager to a $2 million one and spend all winter talking about toughness than it is to rebuild a flawed roster. That doesnít mean Theo ďagrees with you.Ē It means he canít overhaul the roster without money so his only choice is to focus on the edges.
    Last edited by CP_414; 07-15-2020 at 04:25 PM.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    Talent aside as we both agree they lacked it in some areas and my response and the OP post had nothing to do with results on the field..

    That why I'm confused here by the argument against what I wrote


    The OP just mentioned that they needed an in your face type player like Papelbon, in which I disagreed with that type of player and said they dont need that type, they needed guys like Ross Lackey and Zobrist types as leaders.
    Maybe Lackey wasn't a good example

    This had nothing to do with how they played or why they struggled, as yes the lack of talent is the main reason, it was just my opinion of the type of leaders they miss in the clubhouse
    Iím not sure how else to explain it. The OP made some comment about Papelbon types. You said no they needed Ross/Lackey types. Iím saying itís neither. They just needed better players. Thatís not confusing, right?

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Iím not sure how else to explain it. The OP made some comment about Papelbon types. You said no they needed Ross/Lackey types. Iím saying itís neither. They just needed better players. Thatís not confusing, right?

    Gotcha

    Your opinion is, they don't need leaders in the clubhouse, they just need better talent

    In that case, IMO, I'll disagree and say they need both, especially with a somewhat young core of players

  8. #143
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    Nov 2014
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    2020 Summer Camp Thread - Wrigley Field Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    Gotcha

    Your opinion is, they don't need leaders in the clubhouse, they just need better talent

    In that case, IMO, I'll disagree and say they need both, especially with a somewhat young core of players
    Iím saying that indicating that player leadership is the difference between the 2019 Cubs and the 2016 Cubs is like saying the difference between the titanic and a good boat trip was that the menu on the Titanic was disappointing.

    The problem was that they drove into an iceberg and sunk the ship and the problem with the Cubs was that the team wasnít that good. Anything else is noise and focusing on anything other than the difference in talent between the two teams is silly. Thatís the difference. One team was great and the other was mediocre. You could put the best leaders in human history on the 2019 Cubs and they wouldnít be the 2016 Cubs. Itís a talent gap.

    The ďyoung coreĒ of the Cubs rosters are all very experienced players and many of them were key players in the WS team. They donít need an old bad player to tell them to try. Even if they did, they signed Descalso to be that guy anyway. They need better players around them.
    Last edited by CP_414; 07-15-2020 at 04:52 PM.

  9. #144
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    Apr 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Also, Bryce Harper doesn't play hard, he plays angry. He's constantly raging and when something like a call doesn't go his way, he rages at umpires. When he hits a ball in a way he doesn't like, he tantrums & doesn't run to first, and when a teammate calls him out on it, instead of admitting the mistake he rages at him because his ego won't admit fault. Here's Bryce raging all-day, all-night:



    Harper is bad for the game. He's all ego and rage. He's an entitled narcissistic millennial who throws toddler tantrums when he doesn't get his way because he wasn't spanked as a a child. He's one of these guys who wants to make bat-flips after a HR a normal thing to "make the game more exciting", which is utter BS, he just wants to flip the bat because he think it makes him look cool so he can get on TV by showing up a pitcher in a d-bag way.

    Here's Bryce in college wearing his super cool "warrior" eye-black, look how cool I am everyone!:
    https://youtu.be/6pfKXlLPGX0?t=9

    Here he is raging with his steroid-stuffed dad with his super-cool bandana on, look how cool I am everyone! My hair looks so cool too! https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/OABI...2666.jpg.0.jpg

    Me and my roid-father are so alpha yo!: https://advancelocal-adapter-image-u...8579bebf96.jpg
    Harper is an absolute beat off of a person. Most of emotions are negative. I don't care for his type at all.

    Ever since he was a kid, he was told he's the best ever. Dropped out of HS to be draft eligible. First selection, and was treated like the chosen one. Personally, with all his hype leading up to his debut, I'd say he's been a huge disappointment.

  10. #145
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    Dec 2010
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    Seriously this idea that you can tell exactly what kind of person a guy is just by watching him on the field (especially a 5 minute compilation of him getting pissed over a career spanning 8 seasons) is annoying af. Stop playing armchair psychologist please. At most, all you can say is that he has a temper. Piss off.

  11. #146
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    Also this idea that Bryce Harper has to take **** from some washed up bullpen guy that's been on the team for a month because he didn't run to first on a routine play is really stupid too. Lots of players do that. As long as it's not the playoffs, why risk an injury to your star player either? It's like when people used to get pissy about Aramis Ramirez (btw Bryce Harper - WAY better than Aramis Ramirez).
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 07-15-2020 at 09:28 PM.

  12. #147
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    Nov 2014
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    11,543

    2020 Summer Camp Thread - Wrigley Field Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Harper is an absolute beat off of a person. Most of emotions are negative. I don't care for his type at all.

    Ever since he was a kid, he was told he's the best ever. Dropped out of HS to be draft eligible. First selection, and was treated like the chosen one. Personally, with all his hype leading up to his debut, I'd say he's been a huge disappointment.
    Lol. Heís been worth over 35 fWAR by age 27 and heís going to make over $400 million playing baseball. Huge disappointment. Heís probably on his way to Cooperstown. You guys are crazy.

    He didnít drop out of HS either. He graduated early and spent a year in a junior college to be draft eligible early. It worked out pretty awesomely.

  13. #148
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    Aug 2006
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    When Bryce Harper yells at an umpire...he plays angry.

    When Jonathon Papelbon grabs a guy by the throat...leadership. Makes perfect sense.

  14. #149
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    Oct 2005
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    Watching the Dbacks vs Dbacks
    Good to have baseball back even if it is fake


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    El Mago

  15. #150
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    Also this idea that Bryce Harper has to take **** from some washed up bullpen guy that's been on the team for a month because he didn't run to first on a routine play is really stupid too. Lots of players do that. As long as it's not the playoffs, why risk an injury to your star player either? It's like when people used to get pissy about Aramis Ramirez (btw Bryce Harper - WAY better than Aramis Ramirez).
    It should also be noted that when Bryce Harper didn't run out a pop up on September 27th, 2015, the Washington Nationals had already been eliminated from the playoffs. They had a 79-74 record. Seven NL teams had better records.

    Oh yeah, and in the month of September, Bryce Harper had a .493 wOBA, and a 219 wRC+. He was dragging that team by the skull over the finish line. But some dickbag has the audacity to get mad at him for not running out a routine pop fly?

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