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Thread: Wade/Tmac/Kobe

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well they actually do have data on how often players are double teamed:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/soaring...st-season/amp/

    But itís hard to come by.

    But other stats you can use are gravity (which measures how much a player pulls defenders on the floor):

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ity-basketball

    And another good stat is box creation, which measures how much a players combination of passing and scoring creates opportunities for teammates:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yoLgSWA7n6g&t=604s

    Another stat that is good to use but is harder to come by his how much your teammates shooting efficiency increases or decreases with you off the floor:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.giv...warriors%3famp


    So if youíre providing a lot of gravity and drawing defenders, if your facing a lot of double teams, if youíre creating a lot of opportunities for your teammates, and your teammates shooting efficiency is demonstrably better with you on the floor, that speaks to your ability to warp the floor and to take up defensive resources.
    These do look cool and would help to get at some of the things I was talking about. I'll take a look more closely when I have more time and respond in a few days.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    In the post below this you called the NBA WWE Basketball, and when I asked you to name a single thing about todayís NBA better than the 89ís/90ís you did not. So yes, you think the modern NBA Sucks

    I asked you which stats you use specifically (twice now) and you have not answered: so yes, you think stats are useless.

    At least you agree you think LeBron is not that good. You donít think heís as good as Nique, which is just a ludicrous notion. Calling him the best player of an era you believe sucks and is inferior in every way to the 80ís and 90ís isnít a compliment. You are lower on LeBron than every single person on earth.
    I said the Regular Season sucks. And it does.

    Limited defensive game, too many threes, too much me-basketball (some teams have been slowly reduce that and moved to proper team basketball and movement), coaching is close to irrelevant except for specific post time out plays, there's no rivalry and no intensity to the games, they last too long with too many ads and breaks, too many free throws, mostly for basic contact or sometimes even no contact, the current top players lack the aura of a superstar as in they don't have that much grit, the scoring is too high and in general they pay too much attention to attract fans with limited attention spans rather than "sophisticated" basketball fans who are slowly watching less ans less of the NBA and prefer NCAA or even the European game (which has also regressed, but mostly because of financial reasons and lack of talent).

    In the last 5 years most Playoff series also suck. First round is usually trash basketball.


    The WWE remark was due to the perception that it is fake and an entertainment show. 90s basketball was closer to an ignorant's perception of WWE, which is that it is an actual wrestling competition

    Why don't you come up with what's better IN TERMS OF BASKETBALL in the modern game from older eras? You presume that I think it's nothing, yet you have made nothing to base your argument that 2010s > 80s.

  3. #213
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    You just explained what i said months ago. You just got older at least thats what i heard. WWE have always been fake nothing new. The NBA as far as entertainment goes is just the same as it always was. Your perception changed not WWE or Basketball itself. What one like Hogan and Rick over Rock and tripple H or Ewing over Davis?

    How can one say the NBA have a lack of talant and prefer NCAA or Euro when these are the same guys with more experience and mature bodies? One can find Chinese league more entertaining but it still dont change if they played against an NBA team they will get waxed
    Last edited by ldawg; 08-01-2020 at 10:55 AM.

  4. #214
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    Eye test is good beyond stats. Eye test is good for evaluating a player Stuff like his attitude, his movements/mechanics, how he conducts himself on the floor, his health, if hes a team player but when it comes to perfomance numbers says a whole lot more it shows a pattern the eye will not catch.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well they actually do have data on how often players are double teamed:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/soaring...st-season/amp/

    But itís hard to come by.

    But other stats you can use are gravity (which measures how much a player pulls defenders on the floor):

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ity-basketball

    And another good stat is box creation, which measures how much a players combination of passing and scoring creates opportunities for teammates:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yoLgSWA7n6g&t=604s

    Another stat that is good to use but is harder to come by his how much your teammates shooting efficiency increases or decreases with you off the floor:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.giv...warriors%3famp


    So if youíre providing a lot of gravity and drawing defenders, if your facing a lot of double teams, if youíre creating a lot of opportunities for your teammates, and your teammates shooting efficiency is demonstrably better with you on the floor, that speaks to your ability to warp the floor and to take up defensive resources.
    Sorry for the delayed response, I've been moving the last couple of weeks. I've now had the chance to look at these and I agree, they do start to get at the stuff ive been talking about with warp. If these could be combined into a single metric of warp that would be really neat. This is more of the type of analysis I would be interested in and I like these because they take into account more of the fine-grained context of how these things occur, as opposed to a lot of the popular metrics that currently get used. I would be interested to see how some of the guys we've been comparing stack up on some of these metrics (e.g., Kobe vs. LBJ, Wade vs. LBJ, Kobe vs. Wade, MJ vs. LBJ, Wade vs. McGrady).

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Sorry for the delayed response, I've been moving the last couple of weeks. I've now had the chance to look at these and I agree, they do start to get at the stuff ive been talking about with warp. If these could be combined into a single metric of warp that would be really neat. This is more of the type of analysis I would be interested in and I like these because they take into account more of the fine-grained context of how these things occur, as opposed to a lot of the popular metrics that currently get used. I would be interested to see how some of the guys we've been comparing stack up on some of these metrics (e.g., Kobe vs. LBJ, Wade vs. LBJ, Kobe vs. Wade, MJ vs. LBJ, Wade vs. McGrady).
    I don't think there needs to be a singular number, but simply looking at all of them together is sufficient. What would your reaction be if you discovered that even with these sort of metrics, they show LeBron as superior in these aspects to Kobe?

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't think there needs to be a singular number, but simply looking at all of them together is sufficient. What would your reaction be if you discovered that even with these sort of metrics, they show LeBron as superior in these aspects to Kobe?
    Well these are at the early stages of what I would like to see (so there's needs to be a good amount more work here either way), but it would provide support against the idea that kobe warps the floor more than LBJ. If that's not the case, then I would have to put LBJ ahead of kobe.

  8. #218
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    Kobes longevity
    Tmacs peak
    Wades explosiveness when he was flash

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well these are at the early stages of what I would like to see (so there's needs to be a good amount more work here either way), but it would provide support against the idea that kobe warps the floor more than LBJ. If that's not the case, then I would have to put LBJ ahead of kobe.
    The chances that all the metrics are suddenly going to discover Kobe being more impactful is very low considering every attempt, from the most flawed to the least flawed, at determining overall impact says LeBron.

    But at least you're open to the possibility you're wrong, even if practically you'll never be satisfied with the mechanism that demonstrates it.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The chances that all the metrics are suddenly going to discover Kobe being more impactful is very low considering every attempt, from the most flawed to the least flawed, at determining overall impact says LeBron.

    But at least you're open to the possibility you're wrong, even if practically you'll never be satisfied with the mechanism that demonstrates it.
    I'm a scientist dude, I believe in empiricism. My view on kobe being better isn't faith based. If there direct data that speaks to this, I'm not going to ignore it. I understand why you think it is unlikely that these different metrics would provide something different than the data we presently have, but I do think this other approach is looking at a much more nuanced view which in many ways is a different approach. Also keep in mind that the advantages that LBJ has by most popular metrics are very minimal when translated to in-game outcomes and so it's not at all unlikely that a fairly different way of looking at the data would yield different outcomes. Looking at something like LBJ vs. Iggy, sure I would agree, but the differences among the top 10 or so players are very, very small to the point where having one player over the other on different teams for a series would typically just end up leading to those guys cancelling each other out.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm a scientist dude, I believe in empiricism. My view on kobe being better isn't faith based. If there direct data that speaks to this, I'm not going to ignore it. I understand why you think it is unlikely that these different metrics would provide something different than the data we presently have, but I do think this other approach is looking at a much more nuanced view which in many ways is a different approach. Also keep in mind that the advantages that LBJ has by most popular metrics are very minimal when translated to in-game outcomes and so it's not at all unlikely that a fairly different way of looking at the data would yield different outcomes. Looking at something like LBJ vs. Iggy, sure I would agree, but the differences among the top 10 or so players are very, very small to the point where having one player over the other on different teams for a series would typically just end up leading to those guys cancelling each other out.
    First Bolded: Itís certainly not empirically based.

    Though I think even then youíre wrong, your belief in Kobe is absolutely faith based. You have faith that some magical new stat will prove you right because none currently do.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: Itís certainly not empirically based.

    Though I think even then youíre wrong, your belief in Kobe is absolutely faith based. You have faith that some magical new stat will prove you right because none currently do.
    Oh certainly not. I've very clearly and explicitly stated why I think that's the case and I've explained it as kobe warping the floor more beaus he demands far more defensive resources. This isn't a magical statistic. It is based on empiricism, my observation of the game and this can be quantified. It is falsifiable and I can certainly be wrong about this, hence why I'm definitely open to changing my opinion on who is better.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Oh certainly not. I've very clearly and explicitly stated why I think that's the case and I've explained it as kobe warping the floor more beaus he demands far more defensive resources. This isn't a magical statistic. It is based on empiricism, my observation of the game and this can be quantified. It is falsifiable and I can certainly be wrong about this, hence why I'm definitely open to changing my opinion on who is better.
    Except you haven't quantified it. I posted the statistics that attempt to quantify it and they all agree that LeBron warps the floor more (though Kobe warps the floor a massive amount himself).

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Except you haven't quantified it. I posted the statistics that attempt to quantify it and they all agree that LeBron warps the floor more (though Kobe warps the floor a massive amount himself).
    I didnt see those showing that LBJ warped the floor more. Can you point me to the data specifically showing that? Those were links showing and explaining the metrics. Where did they show that LBJ warped the floor more?

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I didnt see those showing that LBJ warped the floor more. Can you point me to the data specifically showing that? Those were links showing and explaining the metrics. Where did they show that LBJ warped the floor more?
    I did not post the stats, but of the ones they have of both Bron and Kobe, I will find them and send them to you.

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