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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Why? His peak is better AND he played longer but his overall ranking is somehow lower despite that?

    I am not necessarily disagreeing with Curry all time over KD but I don't understand why KD also has to be higher in peak then. Curry's career ranking is largely based on his peak...

    I do think KD will get voted in before hand but I am curious on the reasoning why it must be the case, especially from someone acknowledging Curry over him all time.
    When it comes to debating careers I really just keep it simple and focus on the big stuff.

    Durant won an MVP but Curry won TWO and was unanimous. That's legendary.

    Durant won 2 rings but Curry won 3 and led the Warriors to the best season ever. Plus few people, myself included, will ever give Durant full credit for those 2 rings.

    Curry shattered the record for 3's made in a season, multiple times, and changed the game forever. He made more 3's in just a few seasons than Bird (legendary sniper) did in his entire career.

    He has an incredible legacy that for me personally is more impressive than Durant.

    However...if I'm playing a do or die game...

    Durant is my guy and it is for a similar reason why Jordan is my #1 do or die player. In a single game a player's jumper might go cold. Jordan would still find a way. He would get to the line, crash the boards, set up teammates, make a big steal, etc. I trust Durant (2x finals mvp) slightly more to get it done no matter what on both ends of the floor.


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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    If another ball game was never played I would def be on the side of Curry's career > Durant's career.

    However at their peak I think you gotta go KD. Do you like arguing peak performances?? Then have I got the thread for you!

    https://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sh...r-not-prime)-5
    I think if you just look at the numbers and the rings, there's definitely a case to be made for Steph over KD. But when you look at actual postseason performance and who was the go-to guy in the playoffs, isn't it pretty damning that Durant outplayed Curry without question in the playoffs when they were teammates?

    Finals MVP gets underrated as a barometer in all-time discussions, but it shouldn't. Peak numbers and rings are great, but if you just won a title because you played on a stellar team with a ton of talent, it shouldn't matter as much as if you dominated as the alpha and outplayed everyone on the court. KD has done that. Curry hasn't. And I wonder if we're passing the point where Curry may run out of chances to prove that he can be that guy.

    All that being said, both guys will easily go down as top 20 all-time players, and there will probably be a strong case for either or both in the top 10. But unless something dramatic changes between now and their retirements, throw me in the "KD > Steph" camp.

    Edit: And that's before you ever even talk about defense. It's crazy to me how much of a pass Curry gets for his piss poor defense. To me, he should be in the Nash, Harden, Magic, etc. category as phenomenal offensive players who were consistently below average on defense (but somehow Harden gets hell for it while Curry always gets a pass). Meanwhile, Durant is at least average to—at times in his career—borderline exceptional.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; 07-08-2020 at 11:28 AM.


  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    When it comes to debating careers I really just keep it simple and focus on the big stuff.

    Durant won an MVP but Curry won TWO and was unanimous. That's legendary.

    Durant won 2 rings but Curry won 3 and led the Warriors to the best season ever. Plus few people, myself included, will ever give Durant full credit for those 2 rings.

    Curry shattered the record for 3's made in a season, multiple times, and changed the game forever. He made more 3's in just a few seasons than Bird (legendary sniper) did in his entire career.

    He has an incredible legacy that for me personally is more impressive than Durant.

    However...if I'm playing a do or die game...

    Durant is my guy and it is for a similar reason why Jordan is my #1 do or die player. In a single game a player's jumper might go cold. Jordan would still find a way. He would get to the line, crash the boards, set up teammates, make a big steal, etc. I trust Durant (2x finals mvp) slightly more to get it done no matter what on both ends of the floor.
    Curry's ability to create for himself/team/others is exactly what makes him so special and his unanimous MVP etc. leading to title/72 win season are in part due to that ability being greater. If neither of them can shoot well the other defense keeps going 1v1 vs. Durant as it's working and the other defense thinks they are slowing down Curry so they keep playing him in a way that opens it up for the entire team (see before KD for extreme examples of how doubles come 26 ft out giving rest of team tons of open opportunities/shots even if not getting his own this is massive affect on the game). I actually think in the sense of Jordan and his ability to create for self/teammates and take the brunt of attention of the defense is much more like Curry overall and important.

    I would agree KD gets it done more at the other end but I don't think he is like amazing on that end either though (especially when he is focus of defense/best player and so on creating for team instead of fitting into already built system as the scorer/#2 focus). If either of them can't shoot it will affect their own scoring but Curry still affects the overall game more because of how defenses play him while KD they often just let go 1v1 even against like Kyrie as we saw in finals the help isn't available/teams aren't focused on him like that.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I think if you just look at the numbers and the rings, there's definitely a case to be made for Steph over KD. But when you look at actual postseason performance and who was the go-to guy in the playoffs, isn't it pretty damning that Durant outplayed Curry without question in the playoffs when they were teammates?

    Finals MVP gets underrated as a barometer in all-time discussions, but it shouldn't. Peak numbers and rings are great, but if you just won a title because you played on a stellar team with a ton of talent, it shouldn't matter as much as if you dominated as the alpha and outplayed everyone on the court. KD has done that. Curry hasn't. And I wonder if we're passing the point where Curry may run out of chances to prove that he can be that guy.

    All that being said, both guys will easily go down as top 20 all-time players, and there will probably be a strong case for either or both in the top 10. But unless something dramatic changes between now and their retirements, throw me in the "KD > Steph" camp.

    Edit: And that's before you ever even talk about defense. It's crazy to me how much of a pass Curry gets for his piss poor defense. To me, he should be in the Nash, Harden, Magic, etc. category as phenomenal offensive players who were consistently below average on defense (but somehow Harden gets hell for it while Curry always gets a pass). Meanwhile, Durant is at least average to—at times in his career—borderline exceptional.
    I think you have it backwards. Curry leading the 2015/16 teams as the main guy without KD was more impressive than KD joining those teams even if he got a FMVP out of it. Part of what can help a guy like KD have his best postseason ever is teams focusing on Curry/the GS offense already in place and him taking advantage of 1v1's taking over for Harrison Barnes in the lineup.

  5. #20
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    Curry is not a true #1. He has way exceeded his expectations, good on him, and everyone who helped his legacy (Durant).

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think you have it backwards. Curry leading the 2015/16 teams as the main guy without KD was more impressive than KD joining those teams even if he got a FMVP out of it. Part of what can help a guy like KD have his best postseason ever is teams focusing on Curry/the GS offense already in place and him taking advantage of 1v1's taking over for Harrison Barnes in the lineup.
    Curry was phenomenal those seasons, and I'm not trying to take anything away from his regular season performance. His playoff performance deserves criticism, though, especially in 2016. He was coming off one of the greatest individual regular season performances in the history of the NBA and pretty much crapped the bed that year. Especially in the series against Cleveland.

    That Cavs team had no business winning the title that year and was clearly inferior—the Draymond Green suspension shouldn't have mattered as much as it did. But Curry was held to less than 20 points in four out of those seven games, including freaking 11 points in Game 1 and a god awful 17 points (6-19 shooting) in Game 7. If other all-time greats performed that way (Durant included), they'd be crucified for it.

    I did a quick check, and Durant scored less than 20 points only 10 times in a postseason game since 2011. That's 10 games out of 133, or about 7.5% of the time. Including those four games in 2016, Curry has been held to 10 or less 25 times in that time span out of 110 games, or about 22.7% of the time. How does a guy not hitting 20 points in nearly a quarter of his postseason games not deserve criticism?

    Also, I'm a little sick and tired of the double standard with Curry and Durant. When Durant performs well in Golden State, it's "Look how easy the players around him make the game for him." But when Curry performs well surrounded by superstar talent, it's "Holy ****! Curry is a god!" Shouldn't the same logic for Durant also apply for Curry? Having Kevin freaking Durant and Klay Thompson around you probably makes the game easier for you, no?


  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Curry's ability to create for himself/team/others is exactly what makes him so special and his unanimous MVP etc. leading to title/72 win season are in part due to that ability being greater. If neither of them can shoot well the other defense keeps going 1v1 vs. Durant as it's working and the other defense thinks they are slowing down Curry so they keep playing him in a way that opens it up for the entire team (see before KD for extreme examples of how doubles come 26 ft out giving rest of team tons of open opportunities/shots even if not getting his own this is massive affect on the game). I actually think in the sense of Jordan and his ability to create for self/teammates and take the brunt of attention of the defense is much more like Curry overall and important.

    I would agree KD gets it done more at the other end but I don't think he is like amazing on that end either though (especially when he is focus of defense/best player and so on creating for team instead of fitting into already built system as the scorer/#2 focus). If either of them can't shoot it will affect their own scoring but Curry still affects the overall game more because of how defenses play him while KD they often just let go 1v1 even against like Kyrie as we saw in finals the help isn't available/teams aren't focused on him like that.
    I totally get what you are saying about Curry. His "gravity" pulls the defense to depths from the basket we have never seen before. We've all seen Draymond green catching wide open passes at the top of the key and then attacking a 4 on 3 defense. But that's not enough for me. As MBT mentions later in the thread Curry has been held to very pedestrian scoring numbers in a lot of playoff games. Yes when Durant is doubled it doesn't create AS MUCH SPACE as Curry... but I also know that KD is still going to give me 25-30 points even when his shot is off and he is being doubled. He's an assassin on offense. He's special at putting the ball in the hoop. I can still rely on him to carry the load. With Curry I am not as confident.

    I also think you are slightly downplaying the defensive improvements KD has made over the last few seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think you have it backwards. Curry leading the 2015/16 teams as the main guy without KD was more impressive than KD joining those teams even if he got a FMVP out of it. Part of what can help a guy like KD have his best postseason ever is teams focusing on Curry/the GS offense already in place and him taking advantage of 1v1's taking over for Harrison Barnes in the lineup.
    x2 for this post. That's why I have Curry's legacy over Durant's. But flip the > sign when we talk about peak for the reasons mentioned about.


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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Curry was phenomenal those seasons, and I'm not trying to take anything away from his regular season performance. His playoff performance deserves criticism, though, especially in 2016. He was coming off one of the greatest individual regular season performances in the history of the NBA and pretty much crapped the bed that year. Especially in the series against Cleveland.

    That Cavs team had no business winning the title that year and was clearly inferior—the Draymond Green suspension shouldn't have mattered as much as it did. But Curry was held to less than 20 points in four out of those seven games, including freaking 11 points in Game 1 and a god awful 17 points (6-19 shooting) in Game 7. If other all-time greats performed that way (Durant included), they'd be crucified for it.

    I did a quick check, and Durant scored less than 20 points only 10 times in a postseason game since 2011. That's 10 games out of 133, or about 7.5% of the time. Including those four games in 2016, Curry has been held to 10 or less 25 times in that time span out of 110 games, or about 22.7% of the time. How does a guy not hitting 20 points in nearly a quarter of his postseason games not deserve criticism?

    Also, I'm a little sick and tired of the double standard with Curry and Durant. When Durant performs well in Golden State, it's "Look how easy the players around him make the game for him." But when Curry performs well surrounded by superstar talent, it's "Holy ****! Curry is a god!" Shouldn't the same logic for Durant also apply for Curry? Having Kevin freaking Durant and Klay Thompson around you probably makes the game easier for you, no?
    The difference obviously is when it was "Having Harrison freaking Barnes and Klay Thompson" around him he still did it. No one will ever confuse Draymond as an elite scorer. Barnes is not a top scorer. He really only had Klay who just runs around screens all day. Yet they have a championship and the GOAT regular season record. That's amazing. That turned Curry into a made man. All BEFORE Durant joined. That's why there is a double standard.


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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    The difference obviously is when it was "Having Harrison freaking Barnes and Klay Thompson" around him he still did it. No one will ever confuse Draymond as an elite scorer. Barnes is not a top scorer. He really only had Klay who just runs around screens all day. Yet they have a championship and the GOAT regular season record. That's amazing. That turned Curry into a made man. All BEFORE Durant joined. That's why there is a double standard.
    OK, but those 2015 and 2016 teams were still pretty stacked. And you're kind of glossing over my point. I never said Curry wasn't great in the regular season or that his 2015-16 exploits weren't other-worldly. I said his postseason performance has consistently been underwhelming. The regular season record is great, but when you blow it all in a 7-game series to an inferior team and your best player disappears, I kinda don't care about how many wins you had that year.

    Also, are we going to pretend that Durant taking OKC to the Finals when he was 23 years old and taking down Dirk, Kobe and Duncan (before getting waxed by a pissed of Lebron/Wade duo) wasn't still impressive? If that 2012 OKC team is facing the 2016 Cavs instead of the 2012 Heat, I feel like Durant would have had a ring before ever getting to Golden State. Honestly, he and Westbrook are probably still playing for the Thunder right now.


  10. #25
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    Curry has had multiple chances to step up and be the guy and has failed every time

    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Curry was phenomenal those seasons, and I'm not trying to take anything away from his regular season performance. His playoff performance deserves criticism, though, especially in 2016. He was coming off one of the greatest individual regular season performances in the history of the NBA and pretty much crapped the bed that year. Especially in the series against Cleveland.

    That Cavs team had no business winning the title that year and was clearly inferior—the Draymond Green suspension shouldn't have mattered as much as it did. But Curry was held to less than 20 points in four out of those seven games, including freaking 11 points in Game 1 and a god awful 17 points (6-19 shooting) in Game 7. If other all-time greats performed that way (Durant included), they'd be crucified for it.

    I did a quick check, and Durant scored less than 20 points only 10 times in a postseason game since 2011. That's 10 games out of 133, or about 7.5% of the time. Including those four games in 2016, Curry has been held to 10 or less 25 times in that time span out of 110 games, or about 22.7% of the time. How does a guy not hitting 20 points in nearly a quarter of his postseason games not deserve criticism?

    Also, I'm a little sick and tired of the double standard with Curry and Durant. When Durant performs well in Golden State, it's "Look how easy the players around him make the game for him." But when Curry performs well surrounded by superstar talent, it's "Holy ****! Curry is a god!" Shouldn't the same logic for Durant also apply for Curry? Having Kevin freaking Durant and Klay Thompson around you probably makes the game easier for you, no?
    You can't ignore that defenses play them drastically different. With Curry teams will send multiple guys outside the 3 point line just to have him give up the ball at times even if it leaves 3 v 4. I mean we saw multiple laughable times where teams close out to him and ignore a guy going for a layup with the ball. This gravity matters for the team as a whole and will impact the individual stats put up. Even with that in consideration though here are their numbers compared to each other when they played and GS beat OKC despite OKC being up 3-1 at one point and should have won... Steph 28/6/6 on 113 ortg Durant 30/8/3 with more turnovers than assists for the series. Steph outplayed KD, coming back from injury and down 3-1 to even be there in the first place. KD shot 40/105 in those final 4 games himself. GS had no business being there in the first place if you wanna play this game and given how teams play Curry/KD (you will note Curry took less shots and Green's assists jumped in part due to extra doubles sent out top) it still helps Curry in overall context.

    Durant is more likely to put up scoring numbers, shoot the ball, turn it over without the playmaking/assists/same attention and so on sure. His game is designed around beating guys 1v1 and scoring. He is not a creator in the same way, teams don't have to treat him like a Curry or Lebron in that manner at all. I prefer the individual overall capable of similar numbers while having an impact on the game outside that too (taking focus of defense and still creating for others).

    It isn't a double standard if you are aware how each plays and have watched the way defenses defend against them. Curry was seen as better without KD there each leading their own teams, KD was able to perform better with attention on Curry and then just taking advantage. Instead of Iggy or Green boosting their numbers at times given the way Curry was played it is now KD. This is consistent. Iggy won FMVP and look at Greens numbers the series you mention Curry's are down... This is directly related to Curry and how teams played him. Having KD and Klay makes you better in the sense of easier/efficiency and the team but which person takes attention from the defense and which benefits by scoring off that/easier opportunities matters.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 07-09-2020 at 02:59 PM.

  11. #26
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    Curry has had multiple chances to step up and be the guy and has failed every time

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I totally get what you are saying about Curry. His "gravity" pulls the defense to depths from the basket we have never seen before. We've all seen Draymond green catching wide open passes at the top of the key and then attacking a 4 on 3 defense. But that's not enough for me. As MBT mentions later in the thread Curry has been held to very pedestrian scoring numbers in a lot of playoff games. Yes when Durant is doubled it doesn't create AS MUCH SPACE as Curry... but I also know that KD is still going to give me 25-30 points even when his shot is off and he is being doubled. He's an assassin on offense. He's special at putting the ball in the hoop. I can still rely on him to carry the load. With Curry I am not as confident.

    I also think you are slightly downplaying the defensive improvements KD has made over the last few seasons.



    x2 for this post. That's why I have Curry's legacy over Durant's. But flip the > sign when we talk about peak for the reasons mentioned about.
    I guess I view 25-30 points inefficiently different than you then and it is more about how often teams will double out at the top/if you make the right play than if you individually can score if they do. I prefer the player who will help the team as a whole be efficient than the guy who will shoot till he gets his numbers each night no matter what. I agree KD is more consistent in putting up scoring numbers but to me the context isn't favorable of that being great for the team.

    We can agree to disagree I just find it interesting. It's like Lebron over Bird for peak then take Bird all time or KAJ over Shaq peak then Shaq all time. It just looks a bit odd to me when the guy better longer who you also say has a better peak is then lower all time.

    Also weren't you one I was debating that Lebron still better than curry like 2015? You ever think KD was around 14/15/16 Lebron too before or had it always been Lebron up until you thought Curry (I know at the time it was only those two being discussed but like 2012 do you think on that level)? Or is this 100% based on his time in GS where you now choose KD?
    Last edited by mngopher35; 07-09-2020 at 03:58 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I would agree KD gets it done more at the other end but I don't think he is like amazing on that end either though (especially when he is focus of defense/best player and so on creating for team instead of fitting into already built system as the scorer/#2 focus).
    KD's defense is far beyond Curry's.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    KD's defense is far beyond Curry's.

    I used to hold your opinion until one day chronz backhanded me with facts. Still feeling the sting of it.
    I agree he is better defensively, if someone wants to hang the argument on that feel free. I think curry is enter offensively for the team and think it can be argued as more valuable, just depends on the arguments being made.

    I am open to facts but this is odd given the posts I've seen from chronz about kd lol.


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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am open to facts but this is odd given the posts I've seen from chronz about kd lol.


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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I think if you just look at the numbers and the rings, there's definitely a case to be made for Steph over KD. But when you look at actual postseason performance and who was the go-to guy in the playoffs, isn't it pretty damning that Durant outplayed Curry without question in the playoffs when they were teammates?

    Finals MVP gets underrated as a barometer in all-time discussions, but it shouldn't. Peak numbers and rings are great, but if you just won a title because you played on a stellar team with a ton of talent, it shouldn't matter as much as if you dominated as the alpha and outplayed everyone on the court. KD has done that. Curry hasn't. And I wonder if we're passing the point where Curry may run out of chances to prove that he can be that guy.

    All that being said, both guys will easily go down as top 20 all-time players, and there will probably be a strong case for either or both in the top 10. But unless something dramatic changes between now and their retirements, throw me in the "KD > Steph" camp.

    Edit: And that's before you ever even talk about defense. It's crazy to me how much of a pass Curry gets for his piss poor defense. To me, he should be in the Nash, Harden, Magic, etc. category as phenomenal offensive players who were consistently below average on defense (but somehow Harden gets hell for it while Curry always gets a pass). Meanwhile, Durant is at least average to—at times in his career—borderline exceptional.
    for those of us that watched, there is context here. Has anyone of Durant's caliber ever had the individual freedom he had with the Warriors? Curry doesn't bend the floor like Shaq, or like some paint it, but he is absolutely the focus of the defense when on the floor over everyone else on the Warriors. Are we really penalizing him for simply playing decoy much of the time, while KD is given single coverage nightly and kills it as expected?

    Durant's career isn't over, and thank god for his legacy, because his move for sure negates some of his statistical dominance in those Warrior years.

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