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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    LeBron's career gets debated against Jordan. People don't even talk about Curry in the top 10. That's why Curry is held to a lower standard because people expect less.
    Correct

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allphakenny1 View Post
    Curry was already one of the best players in the league before Kerr ever arrived and he was still rising. Dude would dominate in any system. He was even great in Mark Jackson's lack of a system. Take him off ball like Kerr did, and he is one of the greatest off ball players all time. Put him on ball and give him the crazy usage of guys like LeBron, Westbrook and Harden and he puts up the crazy numbers those guys put up. Problem is those numbers and high usage would negatively affect his teammates like it does those other players.

    To the part about Curry having the help of Kerr, Thompson and Green, so did all the other all time greats. None of them won on their own. Why expect Curry to do something none of the other all time greats did?
    Not saying he needs them to win, he needs them to look great. Jordan didnít need anyone in particular to look great, neither does Lebron or Durant or some others. Curry is at his level because of the system and those guys.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Not saying he needs them to win, he needs them to look great. Jordan didnít need anyone in particular to look great, neither does Lebron or Durant or some others. Curry is at his level because of the system and those guys.
    Curry isnít at his high level because the system. The system is Curry. Those players that are so great didnít look great without him. Weíve seen that team with Curry and players and KD and players. Itís night and day. Curry makes everything tick. Iím not going to get dragged into a 1v1 convo. I wouldnít have an issue with people saying 1v1 KD is better than Curry. The difference is this game is a team sport. Curry in a team concept is better than KD in a team concept.

    Hell you could argue 1v1 Harden is the best in the league. Where has that gotten him. The game is played with 5 players at a time. What Curry does on ball and off ball is different than what weíve ever seen before. There hasnít been a player to dominate the game the way he has without the ball in his hands. Itís hard to quantify at times. That will change tho. Heís literally shaped a new gen of players. More and more will emulate his game and it will only serve to highlight how special he was down the road. Thatís part of what makes him special.

  4. #49
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    Curry has had multiple chances to step up and be the guy and has failed every time

    Curry is not the system. They do not play through him. The game does not revolve around him. The Warriors would not be able to do what they do without two all time great shooter on the floor and a really good pace creating point forward. Curry is integral to the system but he is not the system way Magic was in LA or LeBron in Clev for example
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Curry is not the system. They do not play through him. The game does not revolve around him. The Warriors would not be able to do what they do without two all time great shooter on the floor and a really good pace creating point forward. Curry is integral to the system but he is not the system way Magic was in LA or LeBron in Clev for example
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    Yup. Thatís why I want to see Curry on a different team to see if he can replicate that success without the second greatest 3 point shooter ever and a stud like Draymond in a system handcrafted to accentuate his shooting.

    Itís no surprise that Curry has no Finals appearances or anything close to MVPs before the placement of Kerrís system and Kerrís insertion of Green over David Lee.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Yup. Thatís why I want to see Curry on a different team to see if he can replicate that success without the second greatest 3 point shooter ever and a stud like Draymond in a system handcrafted to accentuate his shooting.

    Itís no surprise that Curry has no Finals appearances or anything close to MVPs before the placement of Kerrís system and Kerrís insertion of Green over David Lee.
    I think he would be great on any team. I think more would go through on a another team but I donít think it would be Curry ball


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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I think he would be great on any team. I think more would go through on a another team but I donít think it would be Curry ball


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    Heíd make any team better with just his shooting alone but itíll take something special to keep up rings/MVPs.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Heíd make any team better with just his shooting alone but itíll take something special to keep up rings/MVPs.
    I honestly think eventually heíll live up to his rep. In the mean time he is just the greatest jump shooter in the history of the game.


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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Curry is not the system. They do not play through him. The game does not revolve around him. The Warriors would not be able to do what they do without two all time great shooter on the floor and a really good pace creating point forward. Curry is integral to the system but he is not the system way Magic was in LA or LeBron in Clev for example
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    You can be a system without having to touch the ball every second. You could argue heís more of a system than LeBron ever was. LeBron isnít a system. Heís just a phenomenal player with phenomenal IQ. They just put the ball in his hands and say go. Thatís not a system.

    Curry on the other hand is why what they do works. Yes Klay and Dray have roles in it but thereís a reason why it doesnít work without Curry.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Yup. Thatís why I want to see Curry on a different team to see if he can replicate that success without the second greatest 3 point shooter ever and a stud like Draymond in a system handcrafted to accentuate his shooting.

    Itís no surprise that Curry has no Finals appearances or anything close to MVPs before the placement of Kerrís system and Kerrís insertion of Green over David Lee.
    Itís cause Mark Jackson was a damn fool. He tried to turn two of the best shooters the league has seen in iso ball players.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I honestly think eventually heíll live up to his rep. In the mean time he is just the greatest jump shooter in the history of the game.


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    Heís so much more than that. Curry has been the driving force behind changing how the game is played. I donít have an issue if people would take KD over Curry in a vacuum even if I disagree. However only one of those two players has been transcendent and itís Curry.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueFan420 View Post
    Itís cause Mark Jackson was a damn fool. He tried to turn two of the best shooters the league has seen in iso ball players.
    Players in the same discussion as these other guys rise above having a ďdamn foolĒ for a coach. Donít really know how to make it any simpler than that.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueFan420 View Post
    You can be a system without having to touch the ball every second. You could argue heís more of a system than LeBron ever was. LeBron isnít a system. Heís just a phenomenal player with phenomenal IQ. They just put the ball in his hands and say go. Thatís not a system.
    You just explained a guy being a system with the bolded. When someone flourishes from what Curry was to what Curry is then thatís not a player being a system.

    Curry on the other hand is why what they do works. Yes Klay and Dray have roles in it but thereís a reason why it doesnít work without Curry.
    And it wonít work without Klay and Dray.


    Iíd love to see Lilliard or even CP3 in that system. I would not love to see basically anyone else in some of the systems that Lebron was in in his career because they would not replicate anything close to what Lebron did/does.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Great that we acknowledge this, except you mention Lebron/Jordan and not KD. There is a reason for this and it is that this gravity is something Curry shares with a guy like Lebron or MJ or Shaq but that KD has never been able to match himself. Also in the RS teams would not have the same time to game plan how to consistently get away with doubling a guy so far out and practice it enough for it to be something they can pull of consistently and still contain others. That teams would go to such extremes to stop him in the post season is a big factor that seperates him from KD even if you note other stars like Lebron perform with this treatment that is different than KD performing without it. I am not saying Curry is Lebron or Shaq in total but this ability to be the focus helping the team is and KD doesn't match it.

    You are going to disagree because of 3 games? Again KD did this while losing to Curry before this and without the same attention making it much worse to do so. I know Curry isn't perfect but bringing up examples of him playing poor with major attention isn't worse than losing a round earlier without major attention while playing better than KD himself in said series. KD had a 3 game stretch of 8/24, 12/31, 10/31 without garnering the same attention, 11 to 9 assists to turns. One thing that is different? Westy helped OKC win one of these games by going 36/11/11. Durant had someone next to him taking over and winning a game at times when he played this poor even without taking attention and still couldn't overcome.
    I'm not disagreeing with you because of three games. I'm disagreeing with you because of historical performance. As mentioned throughout my posts in this thread, Curry has consistently underperformed in the playoffs and has historically inferior playoff numbers to Durant. And that's with Durant making his playoff debut at a much younger age (21 vs. 24) than Curry.

    The 2016 series is just the best example I can provideóit's his postseason career in a nutshell for me. And you're quick to bring up that OKC/GS series from 2016. Let's compare their numbers for that series for a second:
    Durant: 30/8/3/2/2 with 3.6 TOs per game on 45/30/92 shooting percentages (27/7/3/1/1 on 10-19 shooting in Game 7)
    Curry: 28/6/6/2 with 4.0 TOs per game on 45/42/91 shooting percentages

    Sure, Curry shot better from the 3-point line. But when you look at those numbers, do you see an obvious example of a guy choking away a series in the same way that we do with Curry's stats against Cleveland in the next series?

    Curry vs. Cavs: 23/5/4/1/1 with 4.3 TOs per game on 42/40/68 shooting percentages (17/5/2/1/1 on 6-19 shooting in Game 7)

    I am not saying Curry is peak Shaq, I am noting something that him and a peak Shaq have in common that KD does not. I am noting how that gravity guys like this have can help boost the stats of teammates like a Kobe or a KD. This is massively important considering what we have been talking about. Kobe putting up similar points, more assists and better overall offensive efficiency that post season is similar to KD putting up better numbers than Curry while Curry gets attention. The difference here is Shaq/Kobe were closer because Shaq was also clearly a much better player still at his peak than young Kobe, Curry/KD are close so when Curry gets that attention and KD doesn't it won't lead to slightly better numbers now, it could be a larger gap since players are closer together (and that's what we saw). The idea of taking attention and helping teammates #'s is the main key here, I am not taking the step to say Curry as as good as Shaq/Lebron/MJ because he couldn't match the individual numbers along with this impact/creating/focus of defense to levels they were.
    But do we just give credit to a guy because him simply being on the floor makes others around him better? A lot of players in NBA history made their teammates better when they were on the floor. But you don't win MVPs and get named among the greats for simply being on the floor and forcing defenses to pay attention to you. Shouldn't you have to actually deliver at some point and perform like a superstar?

    Well your performance is also more than just individual stats. I agree on performance being huge but you seemed to narrow it down to FMVP minus context or numbers together minus context. That's similar to rings without context imo. The context of it all is what starts separating Curry with how teams had to play him and so on offensively compared to Durant. They both have struggles and so on but when Curry struggles he is creating and the focus of the defense shifting it in major ways often while KD does not have that same effect on the team.
    I feel like Curry gets credit as being this great creator, but I don't recall that aspect of his game from the playoffs nearly as much as others seem to. His AST/TO ratio (6.3/3.5) and AST% (28%) don't scream "elite creator" to me. Dude is a very good ball-handler and a decent passer, but nobody's confusing him for Steve Nash or Chris Paul. Also, I recall so many instances of unforced turnovers in the postseason.

    And if we have to play the "impact other than scoring" card, I'll take KD's defense, rebound and shotblocking over Curry's playmaking abilities personally.

    Well his superior numbers next to each other come without the same context for himself and that context separates great players often (carmelo could score but didn't affect game/impact like these guys either, young Kobe next to a player like this is a Robin). The FMVP doesn't make Iggy better and only further shows the context in which KD put his numbers/got those awards. You can't ignore this to push stats/fmvp just like I shouldn't ignore all aspects to push rings that way is my point I guess. You mentioned results and I gave an example though, winning rings. Just like you could say FMVP or stats. The context added is what hurts KD and helps Curry when saying FMVP or stats just like there may be context behind rings too.
    Agree to disagree. I'll take actual performance and stepping up in big moments over context any day, and I'm usually someone who is constantly preaching the significance of context (not just in sports).

    Lol I just responded to what was there, to me the whole thing had aspects that seemed ridiculous so it was hard to tell what was serious about the post.

    You shared a smiley, boiled my point down to a ridiculous quote you made up, and brought strawman like the above "joke" in your last post without addressing what was said lol. When your level of response is troll like I might respond a little over the top myself, sorry it upset you and consider your own posting style.
    Yeah, that's fair. I was being kind of a prick. It's been so long since I talked sports with someoneóI missed trolling...

    Harden is different himself, Curry was on another level in how teams were playing him on GS. I guess I didn't watch enough this RS but I have never seen teams attack a guy like Curry was in the playoffs at the top of the key/on perimeter.
    I tried to find a video of how teams have defended Harden this season, but trust me, it was absurd. It was early on in the season when Harden was playing out of this mind. Basically teams were doubling him a foot or two after he crossed the half-court line, forcing the ball out of his hands. I think Denver tried it first. And it frustrated the hell out of their offense, because the Rockets don't have a secondary creator if Westbrook's not on the floor. It took them a few games to really figure it out, but teams were consistently doing it several times per game to Houston, and some teams used that strategy relentlessly.

    I am not sure what you are even going off about on double standard now as they are different and I never said anything about Harden at all. If it makes you mad he doesn't get credit for shifting defenses (he does this more than KD imo even if I don't think Curry level) then fine, probably want to start factoring this in for others yourself then. KD/Curry/Harden have all choked in their careers but that doesn't change the aspects being pointed out. Not choking because you have a massively easier position next to a guy getting major attention by joining a 72 win and championship team in place to get said stats/accolades is not the same as stepping up individually and being the main guy/focal point/superstar like Shaq/Lebron/Curry which should factor in when comparing.

    Double aren't new, some people demand a large amount of them due to their ability (Shaq/Lebron/Curry) and others aren't as lethal demanding quite that same attention. Sometimes Curry has performed well and others he hasn't, I guess like Lebron hasn't sometimes too or heck even KD struggles despite not garnering same attention. The key is he separates himself from KD with his ability/forcing teams to react to him in this elite superstar way. This can hurt his own numbers (he isn't Shaq) and help a teammates feeding off the attention he gets. When pushing numbers of him and a teammate this is a massive issue that makes the comparison need a lot of context as young Kobe can outpace peak Shaq on offensive stats/ortg next to each other even. That doesn't make young Kobe better (and the gap between KD/Curry is much smaller so KD should outpace his #'s logically given the context).
    I'd actually be super curious to see how many minutes KD and Curry were on the floor together or not, because I feel like everyone uses the "KD always got 1 on 1 treatment because of Curry" excuse a lot. But I recall so many instances when they played Houston in the postseason where they were staggering their minutes more and the Rockets tried doubling KD more when he went off in those series.

    I just don't buy that KD was never getting doubled in the playoffs when he was in Golden State and that Curry was facing this double treatment every single possession he was on the floor. Was it happening more to Curry than to KD? Sure, I can buy that. But I think you're trying to paint this picture of Durant getting guarded by scarecrows while the team's best perimeter defenders are smothering Curry 40 feet from the rim. I don't recall that. In fact, I recall the Rockets constantly using their best perimeter defender (Tucker) on Durant and still struggling to keep him in check, while Curry consistently underperformed despite getting clean looks for much of those series.


  15. #60
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    People talking about Draymond Green like he is freaking Kevin McHale.

    Career 9ppg / 7 rpg / 5 apg on shooting splits of 43/32/71. Klay career 2.3 assists per game.

    They are the ones that are getting an astronomical historical boost by playing with Curry. Not the other way around.


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