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View Poll Results: Who is the G.O.A.T at their absolute peak?

Voters
9. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

    6 66.67%
  • Wilt Chamberlain

    1 11.11%
  • Larry Bird

    1 11.11%
  • Shaquille O'Neal

    1 11.11%
  • Tim Duncan

    0 0%
  • Magic Johnson

    0 0%
  • Kobe Bryant

    0 0%
  • Hakeem Olajuwon

    0 0%
  • Moses Malone

    0 0%
  • Bill Russell

    0 0%
  • Stephen Curry

    0 0%
  • Kevin Durant

    0 0%
  • Dr. J

    0 0%
  • Bill Walton

    0 0%
  • Oscar Robertson

    0 0%
  • James Harden

    0 0%
  • Charles Barkley

    0 0%
  • David Robinson

    0 0%
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo

    0 0%
  • Karl Malone

    0 0%
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Results 46 to 54 of 54
  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    you do realize lebron was still a better 2 way player that year correct? offensively it was close with durant getting a slight nudge but overall lebron was the better player.
    I don't get why you always confuse better with more effective during a season. It's a discussion about peak.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I don't get why you always confuse better with more effective during a season. It's a discussion about peak.
    Heís simple


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  3. #48
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    NYKallthewya back to his old habits again I see. I couldnít imagine hating any player this much.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Do we agree that Lebron in 2013 vs Lebron in 2009 played in a much better team?
    A team that was expected to break the 72-10 record and sweep everyone in the playoffs? That was the argument back then, I'm pretty sure we can dig up many threads about how the 2013 Heat are going to be the best team ever, how they beat Bulls 96, how they break the records and all that. I mean, you cannot disagree with this.

    You realize that your entire argument is based on a series of stats and the notion that Lebron "learned' how to post up? The stats are inflated because he's a ball dominant player on the most dominant NBA team. He's always been very ball dominant anyway, but being on a much better team than anyone else can put out helps inflate your numbers.

    And USG% is not a decent metric for this, it just measures the final action.

    Why was Lebron better in 2009? Because the choke factor wasn't there. He deferred less to his teammates, he wasn't laying the ball to the guy next to him to no avail just becase he was afraid (that came in 2010), he was still the man, he took initiative, he took the hard shots, he made the crucial decisions. By 2010 when the FA thing hit him and the Boston collapse occured, he was a changed player. He could have recovered, but instead we've had an even worse NBA Finals performance the year after. After that he's just been a constant very good performer without being "the man". He had his moments of course, he still was the best player in the league, but he just lost the 'it' factor.


    A player on his Peak does not offer us a shameful display like Game 3 in the NBA Finals. Game 2 is forgivable, but still not really an elite display, but then you go on and have that Game 5... He was also very bad in Game 6 but people love to comment on how he recovered in the 4th quarter when reminded that Ray Allen, Chris Bosh and Gregg Popovich saved their ***, which is to his credit of course as he did rally in the 4th quarter, but overall it was a poor series.
    His only great game came in game 7 and I get that this is where legacies are made or broken, but you cannot argue that the entire season showed his peak, it was a poor season for his standards under very favorable circumstances.
    2009 Lebron on that Heat team in 2013 would have beaten the Spurs in 5.

    Just checked and found out that 2009 was also his best season shooting the FT, which is the simplest way to argue about a player's shooting ability. 2013 ranks 6th in his career in the same category.

    As for why so low? As usual, I don't like players who don't really respect the game. Players that travel all the time, flop, don't know how to dribble properly and my main issue with Lebron is that he could have been an elite all time player but he settled for just dominating weak competition, he never really improved his game until he started to lose his strength. You cannot really expect me to believe that the game's best player cannot dribble properly and doesn't know how to post up. I've seen him being mocked by international competition in 2006 and 2008 because he was so bad at basic basketball. He never improved on much of those, he just managed to play with his back to the basket a little after he was already 10 years into the league already, but his footwork remains **** to this day. Something my 7 years old at the basketball academy see and laugh at.

    But anyway, this is peak.

    Lebron's peak is not as high as his great career should suggest. He has longevity and an extremely healthy prime, similar to the likes of Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Moses Malone, but his peak is not that great, just like Karl Malone's peak isn't spectacular. Great, but not all time great.

    Larry Bird is the SF with the highest peak, Grant Hill and Bernard King are possibly the next two. Can you honestly give me a reasoning how you can dismiss that Bird, Hill and King (all have 4 letter last names coincidentally) are the Top 3 SFs in terms of Peak?

    I dare even say that Durant has had a higher peak than Lebron. Has Lebron ever been as great as Durant was in 2014? You may argue due to some boxscore that Durant was better in 2017 or 2019 than in 2014, but that again ignores the fact that he gets a boost for playing for a better team.

    I genuinely think that Durant in 2014 was the best player we've seen the previous decade in terms of peak.
    My entire argument is that LeBron James in 2013 could now do everything out on the court.

    Bring up the ball
    Play on the wing
    Play down low
    Cut
    Screen
    Shoot
    Drive
    Post-up
    Pass
    Rebound
    Guard 1-4
    Great help defender
    Get steals
    Get blocks
    Communicate on the floor.

    What skill was he missing? He did everything at an elite level. They won 27 games in a row (2nd longest streak ever) and 66 total games. Your biggest arguments seem to be that because they didn't set the all-time record for wins in a season and he had 3 bad games in the finals that he is not even as good as Grant Hill. Do you see how absurd that sounds?


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  5. #50
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    accidentally voted for Kareem, and didn't read it carefully. i think Shaq had the 2nd best peak ever. 2000-2002 he was beyond any player not named Michael Jordan
    Last edited by hidalgo; 07-03-2020 at 03:15 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hidalgo View Post
    accidentally voted for Kareem, and didn't read it carefully. i think Shaq had the 2nd best peak ever. 2000-2002 he was beyond any player not named Michael Jordan


    I think this gives Shaq the win.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  7. #52
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    So I will partially agree with what a previous poster mentioned. When I think of peak I think of a player's best 3 years in a row period in their careers.

    You could make an argument that lebron is more borderline top 10 if you go that route. So for me I actually think you can make a legit ranking where he ranks 9,10 or 11, but again it depends on the standard you are using and if you are capable of objectively ignoring the career of a players outside of that 3 year period.

    For instance Bird's 3 best years he averaged 28 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assist, and about 2 steals while shooting 50-40-90, and those are insane numbers when you really take a second to look at that.

    The argument is not as outrageous as some are making it out to be, but the conclusions of the poster saying "not top 20" for Lebron is outrageous
    Jackie Bradley Junior.... that is all

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    So I will partially agree with what a previous poster mentioned. When I think of peak I think of a player's best 3 years in a row period in their careers.

    You could make an argument that lebron is more borderline top 10 if you go that route. So for me I actually think you can make a legit ranking where he ranks 9,10 or 11, but again it depends on the standard you are using and if you are capable of objectively ignoring the career of a players outside of that 3 year period.

    For instance Bird's 3 best years he averaged 28 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assist, and about 2 steals while shooting 50-40-90, and those are insane numbers when you really take a second to look at that.

    The argument is not as outrageous as some are making it out to be, but the conclusions of the poster saying "not top 20" for Lebron is outrageous
    That is because when I say peak, in a thread that says "one game", I mean absolute best. A one off instance.

    Lebron has been consistently at a very high level, but he was never putting on GOAT performances, not even once can he enter that discussion when compared to other semi consensus top 10 players.
    Lebron never dominated the way the bigs have. Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Moses Malone for example.
    He never reached Jordan's peak.
    He never reach Kobe's peak. Or Drexler's, West's and Wade's for that matter.

    What Lebron had was longevity and more sustainable performances over a period of time. The longer time period you include, the higher Lebron should go. But the key words here are "peak" and "one game". Arguing against Lebron ad a top 15-20 player in this regard is super easy.
    He's barely a top 5 SF in terms of peak and even Durant, his contemporary, arguably has a higher absolute peak than him.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 07-04-2020 at 03:25 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hidalgo View Post
    accidentally voted for Kareem, and didn't read it carefully. i think Shaq had the 2nd best peak ever. 2000-2002 he was beyond any player not named Michael Jordan
    Quote Originally Posted by papipapsmanny View Post
    So I will partially agree with what a previous poster mentioned. When I think of peak I think of a player's best 3 years in a row period in their careers.

    You could make an argument that lebron is more borderline top 10 if you go that route. So for me I actually think you can make a legit ranking where he ranks 9,10 or 11, but again it depends on the standard you are using and if you are capable of objectively ignoring the career of a players outside of that 3 year period.

    For instance Bird's 3 best years he averaged 28 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assist, and about 2 steals while shooting 50-40-90, and those are insane numbers when you really take a second to look at that.

    The argument is not as outrageous as some are making it out to be, but the conclusions of the poster saying "not top 20" for Lebron is outrageous
    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    That is because when I say peak, in a thread that says "one game", I mean absolute best. A one off instance.

    Lebron has been consistently at a very high level, but he was never putting on GOAT performances, not even once can he enter that discussion when compared to other semi consensus top 10 players.
    Lebron never dominated the way the bigs have. Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Moses Malone for example.
    He never reached Jordan's peak.
    He never reach Kobe's peak. Or Drexler's, West's and Wade's for that matter.

    What Lebron had was longevity and more sustainable performances over a period of time. The longer time period you include, the higher Lebron should go. But the key words here are "peak" and "one game". Arguing against Lebron ad a top 15-20 player in this regard is super easy.
    He's barely a top 5 SF in terms of peak and even Durant, his contemporary, arguably has a higher absolute peak than him.
    Kareem and Lebron arguably have the best resumes. Most points ever is a amazing accomplishment. Lebron has a chance to reach the unreachable record. This donít make them the best scorers in the history of the game tho. Kareem scoring lasted late into his career. Achilles took Kobe at 34. Kareem got Magic in his 9th Lakers season at 36. You give Kobe the numbers he had at 34 at 35-36 and Malone record is passed. After 36 who knows what Kobe would of done. Maybe what Kareem did at 36 and beyond?

    Malone is #2 all time in points scored. I donít think heís a better scorer then Dirk. I say Barkly was also a bigger offensive threat as well. Stockton gave Malone so many easy baskets. Stockton having the most assists all time gets players a lot of points.

    KD is arguably one of the greatest players you can add to a team for 1 game. You can play him in so many different ways and positions. 7í0ft on the perimeter. What makes Dirk offense over Malone is what Durant is on steroids. In GS Durant played defense and rebounded like he was 7í0ft as well.

    No post scoring bigs. Best one on one scorers Jordan, Kobe, KD and Bird.

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