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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I don't here this case made enough. A players greatness is technically about how many Championships they've won. It's measured to a greater extent, or at least should be, by how well they performed individually--especially in the postseason.

    Yes, the Chicago Bulls, with Jordan, are one of nine NBA/ABA dynasty's (by my definition). Jordan won six Finals MVPs--and my math can show how he deserved all of them. No other player has won more Finals MVPs following the 1969 Finals, and no other player before 1969 would've won six Finals MVP.

    Jordan since his playoff debut was never outperformed by another player in any postseason series--he was always the best player, and always played like it.

    The post and article below is an ode to the GOAT.

    https://matthewmurphy1.wordpress.com/2020/06/22/417/
    He was the best individual performer on his team when they won, that's not the same thing. Hell, Jerry West won a Finals MVP on the losing team one year.

    No, Wilt Chamberlin is the best most dominate individual player ever.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I love how Durant gets heat for this but Lebron doesn't get heat for joining the Heat. Yes, too much heat.
    People gave LeBron a TON of heat at the time for that move, and especially for losing to the Mavs.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    People gave LeBron a TON of heat at the time for that move, and especially for losing to the Mavs.
    And then it was erased from history.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I was a huge KOBE fan. I may've been the only Lakers fan happy when Shaq left so Kobe could shine.

    But I've watched and analyzed a lot of basketball, my man Kobe RIP... is not a top 10 player. I saw the ESPN list, I disagree.

    I'm pretty confident that these are the top 10 players all-time. I know everyone has their own criteria, but I could make simple, consistent arguments as to why I believe each player belongs in this order.

    1 Michael Jordan
    2 LeBron James
    3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    4 Wilt Chamberlain
    5 Magic Johnson
    6 Shaquille O'Neal
    7 Bill Russell
    8 Tim Duncan
    9 Larry Bird
    10 Hakeem Olajuwon

    11 Kobe Bryant
    12 Julius Erving
    13 Kevin Durant
    14 Kevin Garnett
    15 Dwyane Wade
    16 Moses Malone
    17 George Mikan
    18 Karl Malone
    19 Jerry West
    20 Charles Barkley
    Just a minor tweek

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    !. Because I can think of 8 players who I believe have a better case to be rated higher than him.
    You have a case better than this: "Lebron James is going to win his record 16th All-NBA selection this year, six all-defensive teams, four MVP awards, 8.06 MVP shares (2nd all-time to MJ, James will surpass him here too), three Finals MVPs, sixteen all-star selections..."

    The MVP voters each have their own criteria I assume. Generally speaking, the MVP voters are professional media influenced by the "narrative/storyline" and "overall franchise wins". The problem with casting a ballot for the "best player on the best team" is that it's just a lazy way to divine up credit.

    My research shows that LeBron James was the best player in the regular season (all-time scale) "nine" seasons in his career (season ending: 2006, 2008-2013, 2016, 2018). The only players that were that good that long were Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. What separates James from Jabbar and Chamberlain however, is that James was the best player in the NBA Finals "five" times compared to Jabbar three times (1971, 1974, 1985) and Chamberlain four times (1964, 1967, 1970, 1972). I elaborate on this system of comparison in my blog link in the OP. But to summarize, Jordan because of his unparalleled playoff dominance and peak value, is the only player that I can see ranking higher than James at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    2. I could name a bunch of reasons Bird is better. I don't want to write a novel, so I'll start with the most obvious which is his team impact. While Wilt has the stats, stats aren't the whole battle. Boston went from a 20ish win team to a 60+ win team the season of Bird's rookie year which featured the same supporting cast and coach for the most part. The only major addition was Larry Bird. They then went on to win the title the following year in 81. The fact that Bird has more titles in less time than Wilt, even further proves my point.

    Wilt struggled to translate his impressive regular season stats over to the post season for the most part. That's why his critics say that Wilt literally Wilted in the playoffs. It's why he has a losing record in the NBA Finals and only has two titles in the 16 seasons he played. It wasn't until he changed his game up and started playing more like Bill Russell that he started to win later on in is career when he was mature enough to become less focused on personal stats and more focused on team success. If we are asking who the greatest athlete and most gifted players were of all-time and didn't consider anything else, then I would have to agree that Wilt is top five if not top three.
    The argument that Wilt's performance declined in the playoffs is true... but you know who else that's true for, especially if you consider the WS/48, Larry Bird... and virtually every other player in your top ten not named Michael Jordan and Lebron James. Hakeem Olajuwon was also better in the postseason for his career. But the competition is typically tougher in the postseason, so player performance typically dips. Chamberlain played on better teams later in his career and as a result his aged performance weighs heavier than his prime performance in career WS/48.

    Team Impact? That's actually a loaded question to me. I'll have to address it in another post. There are a lot of moving parts in that equation. Bird helped transition the Celtics into a championship team. But to credit the 30+ wins exclusively to Bird would be madness. The 1979-80 Celtics not only improved offensively, they went from the fourth-to-last defense in the NBA to the fourth ranked defense. If that's all Larry Bird, then he should've been unanimous defensive player of the year.

    The 1978-79 had all sorts of problems, the least of which was resolved in the 1979 offseason when they hired an actual coach.


    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    3. You went straight from number two to number four, so I'm going to just skip this one as well.
    I addressed Erving in post#22. I think Erving's ABA career gets undervalued in most ranking list. NBA purists like to point to the elevation in Zelmo Beaty's game in the ABA as evidence of significantly lower quality of competition there. I can easily push back with a number of cases beginning with Rick Barry that show the quality disparity was not a great as people think. What Dr. J did in the ABA, he pretty much did in the NBA. He had a significant minutes reduction in the NBA--his Sixers teams were much more well rounded than his Nets squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    4. You've got Durant three spaces ahead of me, so it's not such a big deal and not too far off I suppose. Just don't know how he can be ranked above guys like Kobe, West, and Moses. All three won their titles with far less help than he did. Kobe did have Shaq for three of his, but he still has two titles that are more impressive to me than Durant's two.
    I explained this is post #7 in this thread. The only significant difference in Bryant and Durant is that Durant is a far better shooter.

    Bryant is the better defender. Durant however is an underrated defender--opponents typically shoot less than their average when facing him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    5. Why you putting words into my mouth lol. That is ESPN's lame *** sorry argument for having Curry top ten all-time. I think it's whack as well. I mostly go based on team impact in relations to winning championships and the overall effect a players has on the game does factor in for me, just not to the degree impact on winning does. In fact, if they want to use the whole Steph changed the game argument, they should give guys like Mike D'Antoni more credit, because he was the first to use the whole three-pointer or layup all other shots are far less efficient formula.

    Even the 2011 Mavs incorporated some of that into their system as well. The LeBron James system is heavily predicated on drive and kick out the three-point shooters as well. Golden State was just the first to win with it as their primary mode of attack, thus proving that the D'Antoni method from the mid 2000's could work after all. The team using it just has to focus more on D.

    I could even argue that the 2007 Suns were a suspension away from winning the title that year. The point I am making, is that Curry is given a lot more credit for changing the game than he deserves. He was just the first to win with an already established formula that most pundits scoffed at. You wanna put Durant in front of him. I would not have too many qualms with that. It just comes down to personal preference for me at that point. But not to have him at all in your top 25 is laughable man. I'm sorry.
    I still don't understand the Curry top-25, especially when you want to penalize Wilt Chamberlain in your rankings for regressing in the postseason. Curry had an all-out meltdown in the 2016 Finals. Scores of basketball fans the world over ridicule 2011 LeBron in the Finals--and rightly so. But somehow 2016 Curry was actually. Curry had 30 turnovers to 24 assists and shot 40% from the field. He was also a liability defensively the entire series.

  7. #37
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    Jun 2020
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    329
    I guess on episode-2 of "the last dance" MJ explains it all by himself.

    "I would never have been the MJ I now am without Scottie on the same team" he says in exact words.

    Achievements is one thing in team sports, but it is team achievements, not an individual player's achievements and this applies to all great players.

    When a title comes, it is natural that the team which won will also have the "playoffs MVP" award for their best player, as well as the team with the best record in the league during the regular period will probably have the "season's MVP" award for their best player and this applies to all MJ, LBJ, Kawhi or Giannis...

    Would LBJ have won the title without Wade?
    Would Steph have won the title without Thompson?
    Would MJ have won the title without Scottie?

    And then,

    Will Lebron win the title with AD?
    Will Giannis win the title with Middleton?
    Will Kwahi win the title with PG?

    Truth is that the Bull's had a team which was able to remain on a contending level without MJ in the roster,
    The Bucks, the Lakers and the Clippers have a team that would be in the playoffs without Giannis, LBJ or Kwahi respectively, therefore comparison like "was MJ better than what LBJ is" or "is Giannis better than Kwahi" or similar are impossible to make.

    IMO, Giannis is the best player in the world right now and I would agree with Saq who said on national TV "he has the potential to become the G.O.A.T in a few years from now". But this opinion comes from one who would take Scottie first out of all if it was up to me to form a winning team from scratch regardless of time.

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