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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I was a huge KOBE fan. I may've been the only Lakers fan happy when Shaq left so Kobe could shine.

    But I've watched and analyzed a lot of basketball, my man Kobe RIP... is not a top 10 player. I saw the ESPN list, I disagree.

    I'm pretty confident that these are the top 10 players all-time. I know everyone has their own criteria, but I could make simple, consistent arguments as to why I believe each player belongs in this order.

    1 Michael Jordan
    2 LeBron James
    3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    4 Wilt Chamberlain
    5 Magic Johnson
    6 Shaquille O'Neal
    7 Bill Russell
    8 Tim Duncan
    9 Julius Erving
    10 Larry Bird

    11 Hakeem Olajuwon
    12 Kevin Durant
    13 Kobe Bryant
    14 Kevin Garnett
    15 Dwyane Wade
    16 Moses Malone
    17 George Mikan
    18 Karl Malone
    19 Jerry West
    20 Charles Barkley
    I want to hear your case for Dr. J in the top 10, especially ahead of Bird and Dream. I don't have huge issues with the rest of the lest (although I have a hard time with any list that has Mikan in the top 20 based on the lack of talent in his era). Dr. J was a phenomenal talent and is unquestionably a top 20-25 guy for me. But the fact that his ABA numbers were so dramatically better than his NBA numbers really hurts him in an all-time argument. He's definitely not a top 10 guy for me, but I'm sure you have justification for that take.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; 06-24-2020 at 03:40 PM.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Iíll keep it simple.

    Kobe said Jordan is his favorite player and the GOAT. Simple as that.

    BLM
    So because one NBA player said a particular player was the GOAT, that automatically makes him the GOAT? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or are genuinely serious.


  3. #18
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    Nice to see you back, Bosstone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    People always sleep on the Admiral. Would you say he was better than Olajuwon?
    Oh, stop it. You know what youíre doing.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    People have to take off their "fanboy" goggles if they want to truly look at things objectively.
    Donít forget that they also need to take off their ďhaterĒ glasses.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Iím cool with this list other than You forgot David Robinson is a top 15 player ever.
    I rank David Robinson to lead off that next tier right outside the top 20. He's certainly a top 10 Center all-time--I rank him 8th best.

    What separates Robinson and Olajuwon for instance, and I touched on it in a couple paragraphs in the blog post -- I don't think the ordinary fan appreciates how other-worldly Olajuwon was in the 1994 and 1995 playoffs. The only post season performances that I grade higher than Olajuwon's in those back-to-back seasons would be Shaq in 2000, and LeBron 2016-2018. Look what Olajuwon did in the 1995 playoffs: first he goes to Utah, outplays Karl Malone/Barkely in Phoenix/he completely shames Robinson in San Antonio/and caps off the Finals by defeating Shaq and the Magic. It was just an epic run. I think if you take away those two postseason performances, more pundits would claim Robinson slightly over Olajuwon--and so would my ranking system.


    1 Michael Jordan
    2 LeBron James
    3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    4 Wilt Chamberlain
    5 Magic Johnson
    6 Shaquille O'Neal
    7 Bill Russell
    8 Tim Duncan
    9 Julius Erving
    10 Larry Bird
    11 Hakeem Olajuwon
    12 Kevin Durant
    13 Kobe Bryant
    14 Kevin Garnett
    15 Dwyane Wade
    16 Moses Malone
    17 George Mikan
    18 Karl Malone
    19 Jerry West
    20 Charles Barkley
    21 David Robinson
    22 Oscar Robertson
    23 Elvin Hayes
    24 Bob Pettit
    25 Elgin Baylor

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Iím cool with this list other than You forgot David Robinson is a top 15 player ever.
    Lol


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I want to hear your case for Dr. J in the top 10, especially ahead of Bird and Dream. I don't have huge issues with the rest of the lest (although I have a hard time with any list that has Mikan in the top 20 based on the lack of talent in his era). Dr. J was a phenomenal talent and is unquestionably a top 20-25 guy for me. But the fact that his ABA numbers were so dramatically better than his NBA numbers really hurts him in an all-time argument. He's definitely not a top 10 guy for me, but I'm sure you have justification for that take.
    This is a good question.

    Dr. J spent his first five seasons in the ABA. He's easily the ABA's best player. Whether you rank Dr. J top-10 or fringe top-10 is directly related to how you view the quality of competition in the ABA. I created an index (on an all-time scale) based on the performances of 50 of the 200 or so 1976 ABA players that transferred to the NBA in 1977. I also noted the NBA/ABA exhibitions.

    In the 1973-74 ABA season my index factor = .867 compared to the 1973-74 NBA season = .966
    Basically my work finds the 1973-74 ABA season equivalent to the 1966-67 NBA season.

    Erving's game translated a lot better than what people traditionally think, when you really look at the per 100 possession stats in the NBA/ABA it more so validates his ABA numbers. If you have respect for the ABA league quality, I think it becomes much easier to consider guys like Dr. J and Artis Gilmore--who ranks 26th all-time on my lists by the way--all-time greats.

  8. #23
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    1. Michael Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Mystic Johnson
    4. Tim Duncan
    5. Shaquille O'Neal
    6. LeBron James
    7. Wilt Chamberlin
    8. Larry Bird
    9. Olajuwon
    10. K Bryant
    11. Bill Russell
    12. Dr J
    13. Jerry West
    14. Oscar Robinson
    15. Dwayne Wade
    16. Karl Malone
    17. Dirk Nowiitzki
    18. Charles Barkley
    19. David Robinson
    20. Kevin Durant
    21. John Havlicek
    22. Mosses Malone
    23. Isiah Thomas
    24. Stephen Curry
    25. Kawhi Leonard
    26. Rick Barry
    27. Elgin Baylor
    28. Patrick Ewing
    29. John Stockton
    30. James Harden
    31. Clyde Drexler
    32. Reggie Miller
    33. Jason Kidd
    34. Kevin Mchale
    35. Anthony Davis
    36. Steve Nash
    37. Paul Peirce
    38. Giannis Antetokounmpo
    39. Scottie Pippen
    40. Kyrie Irving
    41. Pau Gasol
    Last edited by hidalgo; 06-25-2020 at 08:33 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I rank David Robinson to lead off that next tier right outside the top 20. He's certainly a top 10 Center all-time--I rank him 8th best.

    What separates Robinson and Olajuwon for instance, and I touched on it in a couple paragraphs in the blog post -- I don't think the ordinary fan appreciates how other-worldly Olajuwon was in the 1994 and 1995 playoffs. The only post season performances that I grade higher than Olajuwon's in those back-to-back seasons would be Shaq in 2000, and LeBron 2016-2018. Look what Olajuwon did in the 1995 playoffs: first he goes to Utah, outplays Karl Malone/Barkely in Phoenix/he completely shames Robinson in San Antonio/and caps off the Finals by defeating Shaq and the Magic. It was just an epic run. I think if you take away those two postseason performances, more pundits would claim Robinson slightly over Olajuwon--and so would my ranking system.


    1 Michael Jordan
    2 LeBron James
    3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    4 Wilt Chamberlain
    5 Magic Johnson
    6 Shaquille O'Neal
    7 Bill Russell
    8 Tim Duncan
    9 Julius Erving
    10 Larry Bird
    11 Hakeem Olajuwon
    12 Kevin Durant
    13 Kobe Bryant
    14 Kevin Garnett
    15 Dwyane Wade
    16 Moses Malone
    17 George Mikan
    18 Karl Malone
    19 Jerry West
    20 Charles Barkley
    21 David Robinson
    22 Oscar Robertson
    23 Elvin Hayes
    24 Bob Pettit
    25 Elgin Baylor
    Steph Curry?

    LeBron is too high.

    Wilt is too high.

    Erving at number nine? Really?

    Bird is way too low.

    Durant is too high.

    George Mikan at 17. Wow. No Steph Curry in your top 25 under guys like Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, and Elvin Hayes? This list is kinda odd I must say. Malone is way too low as well as is West. At least you don't overrate Oscar. His ranking is pretty appropriate, though I would have him a bit higher.

    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Russell
    4. Magic
    5. Bird
    6. Duncan
    7. Shaq
    8. Kobe
    9. LeBron
    10. Wilt
    11. Hakeem
    12. West
    13. Moses
    14. Curry
    15. Durant
    16. Dr. J
    17. Isiah
    18. Wade
    19. Oscar
    20. Dirk
    21. KG
    22. Barkley
    23. Malone
    24. D-Rob
    25. Hondo

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I love how Durant gets heat for this but Lebron doesn't get heat for joining the Heat. Yes, too much heat.
    LeBron doesn't get heat for joining the Heat? What rock have you been living under the last decade?

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Steph Curry?

    LeBron is too high.

    Wilt is too high.

    Erving at number nine? Really?

    Bird is way too low.

    Durant is too high.

    George Mikan at 17. Wow. No Steph Curry in your top 25 under guys like Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, and Elvin Hayes? This list is kinda odd I must say. Malone is way too low as well as is West. At least you don't overrate Oscar. His ranking is pretty appropriate, though I would have him a bit higher.

    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Russell
    4. Magic
    5. Bird
    6. Duncan
    7. Shaq
    8. Kobe
    9. LeBron
    10. Wilt
    11. Hakeem
    12. West
    13. Moses
    14. Curry
    15. Durant
    16. Dr. J
    17. Isiah
    18. Wade
    19. Oscar
    20. Dirk
    21. KG
    22. Barkley
    23. Malone
    24. D-Rob
    25. Hondo
    Ok,

    I'm not sure what your criteria is, or what you're using to (over/under)-rate players?

    1.) Why is LeBron #9?

    Lebron James is going to win his record 16th All-NBA selection this year, six all-defensive teams, four MVP awards, 8.06 MVP shares (2nd all-time to MJ, James will surpass him here too), three Finals MVPs, sixteen all-star selections. If you're like me, and donít use NBA official awards and such as your gauge for all-time value, then what reasonable method do you use?

    2.) Explain how Bird is over Chamberlain?

    Chamberlain was better, longer. Bird's value began to decline following the 1988-89 Achilles injury. He never came back as one of the top five NBA players. In my rankings top five=elite players, for any given season.

    I utilize a counting stat I developed called value shares to calculate player value. Chamberlain has more career value shares. But my GOAT list is constructed by emphasizing "elite" seasons ie top five seasons, and postseason performance.

    When Bird returned from injury in his 11th season, the season ending in 1990, Bird was the twelfth best player in the NBA... good but not elite. Bird was even worse in the playoffs his next two seasons.

    Chamberlain was the best rebounders all-time. I can adjust for era and pace, he still ends up a career "fifteen" RPG. I watched all the film I could on early shot blockers like Chamberlain, Thurmond, and Russell. I've read many reputable articles. Chamberlain was the best shot-blocker of the bunch. My estimates have Chamberlain, for his career, averaging 3 and 1/2 BPG IN A NEUTRAL ERA. He's one of the top three shot blockers all-time along side Eaton and Bol.

    The NBA pace was slowing from the early 60s when coach Jack Ramsay took over during the 1966-67 season. Chamberlain's FGA's dropped almost 50% for the rest of his career, but his FG% increased over 20 percent, so he still maintained high enough productivity to be an elite player for four more seasons (1967, '68, '69, & '71) unlike Bird in the twilight of his career.

    Chamberlain is a top rebounder, top shot-blocker, and 20+ per game scorer in any era. To give some further context some sources claim Chamberlain ran a 4.6 40, bench pressed 500+, and had a 45 inch vertical (I haven't confirmed these). He was even top three in total assist twice.

    I don't like officially-recognized awards, they usually overlook the fact that the best individual players are not always on the best overall teams to an even larger extent that I do. Before the Finals MVP was given out in 1969, my assessment shows that Chamberlain should've won in 1964--that would make it four times (1964, '67, '70, and '72) Chamberlain was the best overall player in the NBA Finals. Bird, by comparison was the best player twice (1984, '86).

    The only players I could see with an argument to be place over Chamberlain or Jordan, James, Jabbar, and Johnson (it depends on how heavy your criteria weighs postseason performance where Magic was most dominant).

    4.) I explained my ranking for Durant and Erving in an earlier post.

    5.) Steph Curry "changed the way the game is played"... like a lot of players such as Allen Iverson, Wilt Chamberlain, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.

    I don't care how many games a players' team won, the MVP should go to the "best player", it only makes sense. Curry won MVP in 2014-15, 2015-16 he was not the best player in any of those seasons. In your top twenty-five list, every player on there was a better defender than Curry as well.
    Last edited by Lionel20; 06-25-2020 at 09:56 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So because one NBA player said a particular player was the GOAT, that automatically makes him the GOAT? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or are genuinely serious.
    I was keeping it simple

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Ok,

    I'm not sure what your criteria is, or what you're using to (over/under)-rate players?

    1.) Why is LeBron #9?

    Lebron James is going to win his record 16th All-NBA selection this year, six all-defensive teams, four MVP awards, 8.06 MVP shares (2nd all-time to MJ, James will surpass him here too), three Finals MVPs, sixteen all-star selections. If you're like me, and use NBA official awards and such as your gauge for all-time value, then what reasonable method do you use?

    2.) Explain how Bird is over Chamberlain?

    Chamberlain was better, longer. Bird's value began to decline following the 1988-89 Achilles injury. He never came back as one of the top five NBA players. In my rankings top five=elite players, for any given season.

    I utilize a counting stat I developed called value shares to calculate player value. Chamberlain has more career value shares. But my GOAT list is constructed by emphasizing "elite" seasons ie top five seasons, and postseason performance.

    When Bird returned from injury in his 11th season, the season ending in 1990, Bird was the twelfth best player in the NBA... good but not elite. Bird was even worse in the playoffs his next two seasons.

    Chamberlain was the best rebounders all-time. I can adjust for era and pace, he still ends up a career "fifteen" RPG. I watched all the film I could on early shot blockers like Chamberlain, Thurmond, and Russell. I've read many reputable articles. Chamberlain was the best shot-blocker of the bunch. My estimates have Chamberlain, for his career, averaging 3 and 1/2 BPG IN A NEUTRAL ERA. He's one of the top three shot blockers all-time along side Eaton and Bol.

    The NBA pace When coach Jack Ramsay took over during the 1966-67 season, Chamberlain's FGA's dropped almost 50% for the rest of his career, but his FG% increased over 20 percent, so he still maintained high enough productivity to be an elite player for four more seasons (1967, '68, '69, & '71) unlike Bird in the twilight of his career.

    Chamberlain is a top rebounder, top shot-blocker, and 20+ per game scorer in any era. To give some further context some sources claim Chamberlain ran a 4.6 40, bench pressed 500+, and had a 45 inch vertical (I haven't confirmed these). He was even top three in total assist twice.

    I don't like officially-recognized awards, they usually overlook the fact that the best individual players are not always on the best overall teams to an even larger extent that I do. Before the Finals MVP was given out in 1969, my assessment shows that Chamberlain should've won in 1964--that would make it four times (1964, '67, '70, and '72) Chamberlain was the best overall player in the NBA Finals. Bird, by comparison was the best player twice (1984, '86).

    The only players I could see with an argument to be place over Chamberlain or Jordan, James, Jabbar, and Johnson (it depends on how heavy your criteria weighs postseason performance where Magic was most dominant).

    4.) I explained my ranking for Durant and Erving in an earlier post.

    5.) Steph Curry "changed the way the game is played"... like a lot of players such as Allen Iverson, Wilt Chamberlain, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.

    I don't care how many games a players' team won, the MVP should go to the "best player", it only makes sense. Curry won MVP in 2014-15, 2015-16 he was not the best player in any of those seasons. In your top twenty-five list, every player on there was a better defender than Curry as well.
    !. Because I can think of 8 players who I believe have a better case to be rated higher than him.

    2. I could name a bunch of reasons Bird is better. I don't want to write a novel, so I'll start with the most obvious which is his team impact. While Wilt has the stats, stats aren't the whole battle. Boston went from a 20ish win team to a 60+ win team the season of Bird's rookie year which featured the same supporting cast and coach for the most part. The only major addition was Larry Bird. They then went on to win the title the following year in 81. The fact that Bird has more titles in less time than Wilt, even further proves my point.

    Wilt struggled to translate his impressive regular season stats over to the post season for the most part. That's why his critics say that Wilt literally Wilted in the playoffs. It's why he has a losing record in the NBA Finals and only has two titles in the 16 seasons he played. It wasn't until he changed his game up and started playing more like Bill Russell that he started to win later on in is career when he was mature enough to become less focused on personal stats and more focused on team success. If we are asking who the greatest athlete and most gifted players were of all-time and didn't consider anything else, then I would have to agree that Wilt is top five if not top three.

    3. You went straight from number two to number four, so I'm going to just skip this one as well.

    4. You've got Durant three spaces ahead of me, so it's not such a big deal and not too far off I suppose. Just don't know how he can be ranked above guys like Kobe, West, and Moses. All three won their titles with far less help than he did. Kobe did have Shaq for three of his, but he still has two titles that are more impressive to me than Durant's two.

    5. Why you putting words into my mouth lol. That is ESPN's lame *** sorry argument for having Curry top ten all-time. I think it's whack as well. I mostly go based on team impact in relations to winning championships and the overall effect a players has on the game does factor in for me, just not to the degree impact on winning does. In fact, if they want to use the whole Steph changed the game argument, they should give guys like Mike D'Antoni more credit, because he was the first to use the whole three-pointer or layup all other shots are far less efficient formula.

    Even the 2011 Mavs incorporated some of that into their system as well. The LeBron James system is heavily predicated on drive and kick out the three-point shooters as well. Golden State was just the first to win with it as their primary mode of attack, thus proving that the D'Antoni method from the mid 2000's could work after all. The team using it just has to focus more on D.

    I could even argue that the 2007 Suns were a suspension away from winning the title that year. The point I am making, is that Curry is given a lot more credit for changing the game than he deserves. He was just the first to win with an already established formula that most pundits scoffed at. You wanna put Durant in front of him. I would not have too many qualms with that. It just comes down to personal preference for me at that point. But not to have him at all in your top 25 is laughable man. I'm sorry.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 06-25-2020 at 07:15 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    He means it's too high.
    This..

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    LeBron doesn't get heat for joining the Heat? What rock have you been living under the last decade?
    When people are okay with him being considered a top 2 all time player and whine when someone else gets a top 15 mention, then he doesn't get any heat, no. He got a lot of it until 2012. But after that it went the other way round and back to trying to sell this lie to the world that this guy is anywhere near the very best ever or even comparable to Jordan.

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