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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I expect better from you Hawkeye. You break down Birds game and attributes on the court and in comparison you talk about Durants off court actions?? How is that not bias? Are we talking about talent and ability or are we talking about likability? Because I dont like Durant personally either.
    Bird made his teammates better. He led by example. He was a beast when it came to competition. Durant is ungodly talented, but doesn't have the "it" factor we expect from the all timers. His skills, and results alone will get him into the top 20-25 all time when done. But he isn't on Larry Bird's level. No way.

    Bird doesn't give up a 3-0 lead and then join the Lakers dude.

    I shouldn't need to break down Durant's game, you know it already.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    What context are you possibly using to put those 2 above Bird?
    I said you could make a case. These guys arent done their careers yet. Currently Bird is in my top 10 but Durant and Leonard can surpass him. Maybe I spoke to soon. But if Leonard wins a ship this year are you saying he wouldnt have a case?

    Imagine Kawhis defence being able to hand check in the 80s, which SF would have the physicality or athletiscm of Leonard in that era?

    Then again imagine Birds shooting ability as a two eay player in this era. And with load management.

    I think its a good debate. Itll be a better debate in a few years when we have a better understanding of Kawhis career and Durants.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 06-17-2020 at 11:44 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Bird made his teammates better. He led by example. He was a beast when it came to competition. Durant is ungodly talented, but doesn't have the "it" factor we expect from the all timers. His skills, and results alone will get him into the top 20-25 all time when done. But he isn't on Larry Bird's level. No way.

    Bird doesn't give up a 3-0 lead and then join the Lakers dude.

    I shouldn't need to break down Durant's game, you know it already.
    I do know his game. But when making your point about Bird you mention all his great attributes as a player. His ability on the court. But when talking about Durant youre essentially saying he has no balls. Which I comepletly agree with. He doesnt have any balls, his moves were that of a coward joining the warriors. You know well which side of the argument Im on there. But I think 20-25 is way to low for Durant. How he finishes his career will deterimin that but I already have him in the top 15 based on talent alone.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Bird made his teammates better. He led by example. He was a beast when it came to competition. Durant is ungodly talented, but doesn't have the "it" factor we expect from the all timers. His skills, and results alone will get him into the top 20-25 all time when done. But he isn't on Larry Bird's level. No way.

    Bird doesn't give up a 3-0 lead and then join the Lakers dude.

    I shouldn't need to break down Durant's game, you know it already.
    If you change Durant's name with Lebron's, you would still have a point.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Not sure how Bird has a case ahead of LeBron as of 2016. Stats, rings, dominance, awards, longevity, all point to LeBron. And he has been pulling away ever since.
    It's a very hard comparison honestly. I mean, Bird had a debilitating career ending injury in his ninth year. In those nine years, he pretty much equaled what LeBron has achieved in terms of winning and accolades in all of his 17 years of playing. I mean, give Larry Bird all the access to the modern training, vitamins, diet, and hyperbaric chambers that LeBron has and then we would see what he could do with 17 good years under his belt. LeBron can only spend 1.5 mill a year on his hyperbaric chamber because of Larry Bird to begin with. What is indisputable to me is that Larry in his first decade pretty much dwarfed LeBron in his. Larry was a winner right out of the gate. LeBron had to leave his team and go to D-Wade to learn to win. In their peaks it was Larry by a mile both tangibly and intangibly. If we had to start a team, all things being equal, I'm going with Larry based on all that.

    Larry was the better shooter, better long range shooter, higher basketball IQ, better team impact in terms of winning, scorer, rebounder, free throw shooter, better leader, better in the clutch, was more respected by his teammates, could play off the ball and in a real system that revolved around the team while still dominating, and yes, even a slightly better passer; Assist totals do not tell the whole story. The only advantage LeBron has is in longevity and man to man defense. Bird was a very underrated defender and was extremely effective at disrupting passing lanes and even led the league in steals a few times. Larry definitely got at it defensively and did what his coach asked of him despite his short comings in terms of foot speed and lateral movement in comparison to the great athletes of his era. Athleticism is not all related to the physical stature of your body. Hand eye coordination and anticipation plays a huge factor as well; In both, I would give a sizable edge to Larry.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I do know his game. But when making your point about Bird you mention all his great attributes as a player. His ability on the court. But when talking about Durant youre essentially saying he has no balls. Which I comepletly agree with. He doesnt have any balls, his moves were that of a coward joining the warriors. You know well which side of the argument Im on there. But I think 20-25 is way to low for Durant. How he finishes his career will deterimin that but I already have him in the top 15 based on talent alone.
    Durant is pretty damn close to top 15 I agree. 14-17 range to me. I'd have to think about it and draw out a list.
    Had he won two rings and NBA Finals MVP's under different circumstances, he would be pretty much a lock for top ten easily and if not, would be right on the cusp.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    It's a very hard comparison honestly. I mean, Bird had a debilitating career ending injury in his ninth year. In those nine years, he pretty much equaled what LeBron has achieved in terms of winning and accolades in all of his 17 years of playing. I mean, give Larry Bird all the access to the modern training, vitamins, diet, and hyperbaric chambers that LeBron has and then we would see what he could do with 17 good years under his belt. LeBron can only spend 1.5 mill a year on his hyperbaric chamber because of Larry Bird to begin with. What is indisputable to me is that Larry in his first decade pretty much dwarfed LeBron in his. Larry was a winner right out of the gate. LeBron had to leave his team and go to D-Wade to learn to win. In their peaks it was Larry by a mile both tangibly and intangibly. If we had to start a team, all things being equal, I'm going with Larry based on all that.

    Larry was the better shooter, better long range shooter, higher basketball IQ, better team impact in terms of winning, scorer, rebounder, free throw shooter, better leader, better in the clutch, was more respected by his teammates, could play off the ball and in a real system that revolved around the team while still dominating, and yes, even a slightly better passer; Assist totals do not tell the whole story. The only advantage LeBron has is in longevity and man to man defense. Bird was a very underrated defender and was extremely effective at disrupting passing lanes and even led the league in steals a few times. Larry definitely got at it defensively and did what his coach asked of him despite his short comings in terms of foot speed and lateral movement in comparison to the great athletes of his era. Athleticism is not all related to the physical stature of your body. Hand eye coordination and anticipation plays a huge factor as well; In both, I would give a sizable edge to Larry.
    Mmm no bird was the better shooter that had the ability to use either hand. I am sorry but he was not better on those other things. But yes base on where he played on the floor is no different than Lebron having more assist. Itís just the way they played. But when you break down both players abilities and the longevity Lebron surpass him. Larry was not even the best player in his own era. Magic can make a case for that. Can you picture Lebron playing in the era with bird and magic? He is literally Almost both of them in one package. Oh I would also say Larry was more clutch if thats a stat I think it falls under shooting. Being more athletic with similar skills gives you an advantage. This is one reason Jordan also excels. They are not only athletic they have the skills to match. One would not compare Larry to Mj and magic in the same sentence. It would be interesting seeing Larry play sg or trying to defend a point guard.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-17-2020 at 08:46 PM.

  8. #53
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    No, Lebron is not Magic and Bird in one package lol. He's inferior to both. Both in terms of skill and especially mentally.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    No, Lebron is not Magic and Bird in one package lol. He's inferior to both. Both in terms of skill and especially mentally.
    What Bird did that Lebron did not do? what Lebron did that Bird physically could not? What did Magic do that Lebron cant? Sure its not going to be identical or even at the same level but hes done it reguradless. Its like Kobe to MJ its not as decerated or identical to mj but he did the same things MJ did. now picture Kobe with Kidd like skills plus mj like skills who is the better player? Kobe or MJ? One player has the ability to do more on a elite level. You would not put bird in the same sentence as a guard. While bird had the skills to play all 5 positions he did not have the physical abilty to that of Lebron. While Magic is known as the best pg of all time dont think think could not play power foward and be just as successful. Ability vs accomplisments. As for mental differences thats generational.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-18-2020 at 05:27 AM.

  10. #55
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    I think he is more a combination of Jim Brown and Richard Simmons


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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    No, Lebron is not Magic and Bird in one package lol. He's inferior to both. Both in terms of skill and especially mentally.
    Interesting. He's won more than both, and has been more dominant...for longer.

    His bball iq is unbeaten, maybe tied by some.

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Interesting. He's won more than both, and has been more dominant...for longer.

    His bball iq is unbeaten, maybe tied by some.

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    Wow, so he played longer.
    He also got to pick half his teammates or more for more than half of his career.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I do know his game. But when making your point about Bird you mention all his great attributes as a player. His ability on the court. But when talking about Durant youre essentially saying he has no balls. Which I comepletly agree with. He doesnt have any balls, his moves were that of a coward joining the warriors. You know well which side of the argument Im on there. But I think 20-25 is way to low for Durant. How he finishes his career will deterimin that but I already have him in the top 15 based on talent alone.
    Has Durant ever been the best player in the game, in a single year? How about in a single playoff run? Has he ever led his team to anything as the best player on his team? Nope to all of it. Bird is a yes to all of those.

    There is context to legacy, and ranking unfortunately. Durant has killed his own legacy, and there is nothing he can do about it at this point. His sheer talent will get him into that top 20. But he robbed us, and himself, of an all timer ranking in the top 10 by his actions. Where you are considered when finished has context, it's not just a math equation.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    If you change Durant's name with Lebron's, you would still have a point.
    Not sure why I am replying, as I stopped doing so with you long ago. LeBron James, is a top 2-3 player ever. Whether you choose to acknowledge greatness past the year 1995 is up to you. You clearly have a massive bias against modern players, and that is your right to do so. But please understand, greatness will always come in sports, or anything else in life. Jordan will eventually get knocked off his perch. It won't be by LeBron, but it will happen.

    LeBron James is higher ranked than Larry Bird. By nearly every fan alive at this point. Hell MJ isn't the outright GOAT, he has fans who look at Wilt, Russell, or Jabbar for example. But if you polled players, GM's, fans, etc, LeBron is going to be ranked higher. Just the way it is.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    It's a very hard comparison honestly. I mean, Bird had a debilitating career ending injury in his ninth year. In those nine years, he pretty much equaled what LeBron has achieved in terms of winning and accolades in all of his 17 years of playing. I mean, give Larry Bird all the access to the modern training, vitamins, diet, and hyperbaric chambers that LeBron has and then we would see what he could do with 17 good years under his belt. LeBron can only spend 1.5 mill a year on his hyperbaric chamber because of Larry Bird to begin with. What is indisputable to me is that Larry in his first decade pretty much dwarfed LeBron in his. Larry was a winner right out of the gate. LeBron had to leave his team and go to D-Wade to learn to win. In their peaks it was Larry by a mile both tangibly and intangibly. If we had to start a team, all things being equal, I'm going with Larry based on all that.

    Larry was the better shooter, better long range shooter, higher basketball IQ, better team impact in terms of winning, scorer, rebounder, free throw shooter, better leader, better in the clutch, was more respected by his teammates, could play off the ball and in a real system that revolved around the team while still dominating, and yes, even a slightly better passer; Assist totals do not tell the whole story. The only advantage LeBron has is in longevity and man to man defense. Bird was a very underrated defender and was extremely effective at disrupting passing lanes and even led the league in steals a few times. Larry definitely got at it defensively and did what his coach asked of him despite his short comings in terms of foot speed and lateral movement in comparison to the great athletes of his era. Athleticism is not all related to the physical stature of your body. Hand eye coordination and anticipation plays a huge factor as well; In both, I would give a sizable edge to Larry.
    Higher bball IQ than LeBron? Nah, they are about as elite as it gets on that. LeBron didn't need to develop his jumper like Bird did, and in reality, scoring is scoring. Don't care how you do it

    Let's look at the balance sheet...

    Award Bird LeBron
    MVP 3 4
    Finals MVP 2 3
    1st team NBA 9 12
    2nd team NBA 1 2
    3rd team NBA 0 1
    all defense 1 6
    all star apps 12 16

    LeBron beats him in nearly every advanced metric, and actually is a runaway in playoff metrics.

    The case for LeBron not being the best SF ever died after he won in Cleveland. It has been nothing but distancing himself from Bird since then.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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