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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    The USA has done an outstanding job in covering some inherent human traits, but those will always exist. Unfortunately we are a species that wants to be part of a homogenous group and even then we are very likely to be territorial, so homogeneity is divided into family groups etc.
    You think it's genetic within the species?

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  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    You think it's genetic within the species?
    Not sure genetic is the correct way to go, but there definitely is group bias amongst humans. Whether it is genetics (biological) or a part of a social construct, I don't know.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by likemystylez View Post
    I know.... trying to address the actual problems isnt as much fun as pointing the finger at everyone and accepting no responsibility. Lets just keep looting target and burning down wendy's because thats a rational and productive way to resolve this systematic oppression thing .
    https://youtu.be/3vKXOSXDzHM

    Here is a rational group serving and protecting.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Pretty much, yes.

    It's difficult because you have to understand social dynamics are different than personal dynamics.

    For example if make a group of 10 people, you put 2 Americans with 8 foreigners, they are very likely to be attracted to each other to form a closer relationship (ie friendship). It won't matter if it's a Caucasian with an African American or a Hispanic with an Asian American. They have more in common than what separates them.

    But if you now have a group of 10 Americans, you're very likely to see them split into ethnicities. There would be the odd one out, there always is, but it's how it is. People perceive difference because we think with our eyes instead of our brains and the first impression scars our minds. Asking people to jump that hurdle may be too much for them.

    The USA has done an outstanding job in covering some inherent human traits, but those will always exist. Unfortunately we are a species that wants to be part of a homogenous group and even then we are very likely to be territorial, so homogeneity is divided into family groups etc. When you are a nation based on a dysfunctional basic system such as this, you are bound to have several issues.
    I honestly cannot tell what the answer is, but I can tell you that Europe is heading into a worse situation than the USA because Europe was never ready for this. The USA was built on settlers and immigrants and the original inhabitants do not get to tell their story.

    For example Australia has a similar background but if you look at their ethnic diversity, it's almost non-existent. The European descendants make up something like 90% of the population, Chinese are like 4-5% and the Africans and natives are less than 2%. You still have racism there, but the country is considered one of the best places to live, something that the USA has lost and I wouldn't say that there is systemic racism like in the USA. The minorities aren't big enough to spill over these issues over generations of genuine oppression towards non-whites in Australia.
    And if you see the census of Australia, you are not being counted by skin tone, but by country of origin. There's a huge difference. And just like in the USA, you have these people group together, same neighbourhoods and all that. I met an Australian girl last year in Greece and she was like "I love Greeks, I grew up on a street where 20 out of 22 houses were Greek, every day there was a party somewhere". I've met and spoken to many people in Australia and even have relatives there. They all love it there but they are all pretty much living in they enjoy some self instilled segregation. And there could be tensions between lots of these ethnic groups, but it's a bit weird to hear news about Australia in that light.

    I also have extended family in South Africa. Most of them have fled already. What is going on there is the complete opposite. The remaining whites are being constantly under threat. Home invasions, armed robberies, car thefts, breaking of shop windows, kidnappings and various other crimes are at play. This is pretty much cold blood revenge. The remaining members of my family are now in their 70s and whenever they hear noise at their home at night, they just pretend they're sleeping and they go downstairs the next morning to see the place messed up. That happens at least 3 times a month.

    In South Africa they call this "white genocide", which is an exaggeration, but it does show that there's a tendency for this kind of attacks. But from what I gather, it's not that these people's homes are targetted because whites live there, but the fact that those are the biggest and in the more fancy neighbourhoods is what does the trick. And the same situation applies to farms. But at the same time, the whites are a significant and powerless minority that is under threat. At the same time, you still have white-only towns in South Africa, either because they are a lost reamnant of Apartheid, or because the remaining whites want a place to be secure from the crime that has met the majority of the other whites. At the end of the day, the point is that South Africa has serious racial issues as well. But they also have internal problems, with tribal wars.

    South Africa has some things common with Brazil. When it comes to census. They split the population in white, black, mixed and others. White skinned applies to both, black skinned also, but the South Africans call them 'Bantu' which is the main tribe. And one has 'brown' (Brazil) and the other has 'coloured'. Both are essentially what Americans call 'mixed' heritage. And these people are a significant portion of the population.


    Why all this? Well, the idea is that racism is prevalent in places where you have various races living together. You go to Poland or a place like Libya, people will tell you they're not racists. That's because they usually do not live with other races. When someone different comes to their land, well, they tend to stare. It's a different kind of person than what they're used to. If you dump a 10-15% worth of the entire population of these people into these countries, racism will become an issue for sure.

    We have these issues in Europe a lot nowadays, especially after the 90s and countries like the UK, France, Germany, Sweden and Belgium (and others) have opened up to African and Asian populations, something that wasn't the case all over the place. So you have an imaginary 'iron curtain' of who is okay with multiculturalism and who isn't.
    There was a study by Eurostat a while back, which is the official statistical tool of the European Union. It asked if the family would be comfortable with their child dating a white person (92% said yes), a black person (64% said yes) or an Asian person (69% said yes). Asian here means Chinese basically (whereas in the UK Asian means a person from the Indian peninsula so not sure if they got mixed up there). In my opinion, if you had asked this question in Eastern Europe or South Europe alone, the approval rate would fall significantly to less than 40%. Unfortunately we do not have the official numbers or who was asked, but some possibly fake maps have circulated, though the link in the picture is about unemployment actually, but here it is

    It is how things are. People have these innate defense mechanisms that in the bigger picture create a racial chasm. As I've said earlier, the USA has two signfiicant minorities that are being marginalized, which is what always happens with minorities, but they are large enough to cause friction to the society when they speak out. I honestly don't know the solution to this but I have noticed that it's the source of many problems.

    In Cyprus where I have resided for several years, the island is split now because Turkey invaded due to an ethnic conflict. The reason? 18% of the island's inhabitants were Turks. Now they control 36% of the land illegally and the populace is separated between whatever cease fire line the United Nations have placed.
    The whole Yugoslav wars erupted because there were minorities in some places.
    Africa and to an extent the Middle East are in today's mess not really because of colonialism, but mostly by decolonialism. They didn't let the natives sort matters themselves, the British and to a lesser degree the French just drew the map as if no one was living there and now you have multiple nations with significant minorities and lots of internal conflicts. The last disastrous one was with Sudan, which led to the formation of South Sudan. Then you have the ongoing issues in Nigeria.
    And of course the most popular of them all with Israel & Palestine.

    I think the USA is safe from this kind of escalation as long as the minorities still view themselves as Americans of the USA. When they give up hope in being perceived as equals, then we'll enter into an entire new mess. And once more I'll say that the USA has done a very good job at improving the situation, but it's still not enough. I'm not sure if it will ever be enough. There seems to be too much hatred in the air for this to be fixed with a few legislative points and a couple of reforms.


    On an ending note, I'll give you something from a personal experience. I was studying in London and I had someone come to visit from home. We went on a train and I sat on the left hand side of the train and my relative sat on the right hand side. After a stop, there was an empty spot across my relative but I didn't feel like getting off my seat. A black person sat across my relative. This was a train with 2 seats on either side and two opposing seats facing them. My relative grew anxious at this development, which I found bizarre. This was just some guy in his work clothes going home. After a couple of nods, I joined my relative and sat there. Of course there was nothing, but my relative seemed genuinely scared. It's not as if this was the first time they had encountered a black person. I mean my building's doorman was a black dude that my relative was fond of and my relative's family even lived in central Africa for a while. But this stranger that sat across got my relative going a bit mad. The same thing happened when a big drunken fat white dude sat on the subway next to my relative, so this was something like a mental reflex, some defensive trigger. This person I am describing is not racist, but that moment in the train could convince anyone that it was racially driven. Maybe it was, but at the same time, it wasn't on purpose.

    Now imagine this person magnified into a society of hundreds of million people. A slight reaction may cause an outbreak.

    It could also be related to political ideology really. Different = good VS different = bad. Liberals vs Conservatives. Maybe it all starts there. Or maybe it all leads to what political alignment you'll have.
    Asking people to jump that hurdle isnt too much. Its only too much for a certain type of person who resists change. The racist that refuses to accept or agnowledge the problem.

    I dont think it is human behaviour at all. My friends daughters are best friends. One speaks english and is black, the other speaks spanish and is white. They cant communicate (yet) but they are inseperable. Im Persian, most of my friends are Caucasian, West Indian, Asian, Arabic and Isreali. I literally have had one Persian friend my entire life. The heard mentality comes from familiarity not race as you described it. I dont have much in commom with the Persian comminity because I grew up in the United States, and Canada.

    So to me its about acceptance. First of all accepting that there is a problem. Racism is a problem every where. Second, we need to come up with real solutions because again as you said these sort of things are deep routed in our society. And there may not be a simple solution. It may not be as simple as changing laws. It might be something more like a ripple effect of change over time. Because to your point again these sort of things could be psychological.

    Your cousin doesnt seem racist but perhaps has suffered some sort of trauma that makes him feel nervous or even threatened around certain men of any colour. Maybe its his experiences thst have shaped his perception. Ppl like that could seek therapy, or perhaps even a healthy conversation could give them some clarity.

    I live in two cities in two different countries. One being Houston, Texas and the other being Toronto Ontario. Racism exists everywhere. But what you fail to mention is that so does love. We see alot more diversity in Toronto as its one of the most multicultural cities in the world. Here we have Jewish, and Muslim communities living in harmony. As neighbors, friends. You have all sorts of mixed couples, mixed raced children. Its a city that really embraces everyones culture. I go to Houston, and Austin and I do still see alot of the same. I see mixed couples, children, I experience the Southern hospitality. Theres alot of ethnic and diverse communities in the south too. Yes racism is still alive. But my point is lets not chalk up racism to human nature because that is simply not true. There are so many examples of different ethnic ppl embracing one another all over the country too. That shows me we are more than capable of unity if we want it.

    Racism is not human nature. It is taught. Babies never know the difference and always play together. That should prove it for anyone.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 06-15-2020 at 09:51 AM.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by likemystylez View Post
    "They are made to feel like minorities when their auntsestors have been here pretty much as long as the european settlers. Why is that?"

    That's the original statement that I was responding too. I don't believe the vast majority of the inequalities are injustices. I do believe there are things that could be changed with our policing. Its really hard to definitively prove that racism is the cause of the problem with police brutality. That is to say- African Americans find themselves in life or death situations with police more than other races because they tend to escalate situations more than other races.

    For instance- Rayshard Brooks resisted arrest, punched 2 officers multiple times, then stole ones taser and tried to use it on the police. If a white person did that, theres a good chance the police would shoot at him too...... Yet.... Brooks case is being used to show we need to defund police, and nobody is talking about all of the things Brooks could have done different to avoid that situation. The story is being made that these cops just went out and saw a black man so they gunned him down.

    But to the point- if you are going to say black people are treated worse by society- say exactly what laws are in place to keep black people down? Is society making a choice to keep them down, or are they making poor life decisions for themselves and their families generation after generation? We are no longer in 1860 or even 1960 so dont bring up past laws. Talk about what youd specifically like to see changed to promote equal treatment right now.
    Can you honestly tell me that if you wanted too you couldnt find examples of racism and or police brutality? If the answer is anything but yes please dont respond as our converaation would be over.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    You think it's genetic within the species?
    Its not. Racism is taught. If we put a bunch of multicultural 2 year olds together they will play with eachother just the same.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 06-15-2020 at 09:52 AM.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Not sure genetic is the correct way to go, but there definitely is group bias amongst humans. Whether it is genetics (biological) or a part of a social construct, I don't know.
    Great then lets agnowledge that bias and take steps to make a change for everyone.

    Diversity classes at the elementry level would educate children about eachother and how to embrace their differences. Thats one idea.

    Its not just about black people. You, yourself have experienced racism. Wouldnt it be cool if the world started moving to a place where your children wouldnt ever have to experience it?

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post

    Racism is not human nature. It is taught. Babies never know the difference and always play together. That should prove it for anyone.
    I want to isolate this part as I have nothing to disagree with the rest of it.

    Babies are very likely to play with balls, bears, cats, tigers, snakes, butterflies, wasps, dogs, ants, toilet paper.... I could go on, from toys, to random stuff, to pets to wild animals.

    I get why you think that's a good argument but it's not really where you'd want to base it.

    I'm not sure at what age a kid is mature enough to recognize its own family, but perhaps that's when you should judge this aspect. But if it falls in line with an age where you've already heard your people tell you to distrust strangers then it's a moot point.

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I want to isolate this part as I have nothing to disagree with the rest of it.

    Babies are very likely to play with balls, bears, cats, tigers, snakes, butterflies, wasps, dogs, ants, toilet paper.... I could go on, from toys, to random stuff, to pets to wild animals.

    I get why you think that's a good argument but it's not really where you'd want to base it.

    I'm not sure at what age a kid is mature enough to recognize its own family, but perhaps that's when you should judge this aspect. But if it falls in line with an age where you've already heard your people tell you to distrust strangers then it's a moot point.
    Thank you for bringing up this point as I think it concludes the conversation perfectly.

    "Babies will play with tigers, snakes, bears etc" I agree they will, untill they are taught differently. Babies will also play with any one of differnt ethnic back rounds until they are taught differently. You see my point? Its not human nature, racism is something we learn, same as sexism. Hense why my idea is to make changes starting at the elementary level or perhaps even kindergarten.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 06-15-2020 at 11:40 AM.

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Thank you for bringing up this point as I think it concludes the conversation perfectly.

    "Babies will play with tigers, snakes, bears etc" I agree they will, untill they are taught differently. Babies will also play with any one of differnt ethnic back rounds until they are taught differently. You see my point? Its not human nature, racism is something we learn, same as sexism. Hense why my idea is to make changes starting at the elementary level or perhaps even kindergarten.
    Sure is, but we don't have survival of the species if we do not teach our kind what is safe and what is not. It's not teaching good vs bad, it's safe vs unsafe. That's a key difference.

    For example, safe => family, own people etc. That extents to nation (ethnic group) and race as larger the scope becomes. When a mother says to her child that it's not safe to talk to strangers, it includes everyone that's outside the family circle, it's not specific to skin colour, nationality etc. Those things may or may not be automatic, but for sure I doubt the vast majority of people are like "beware of people that have this color of skin" or "speak this language". It's far more likely to be something like "beware of people living in such and such neighborhood", which may or may not have a majority of a specific group with a predominant skin tone or racial group.

    I think there's a reason why socialists are more prone to accept the anti-racist movement as something natural, because they are far more likely to be willing to disband the family unit, inheritance and other things that link people with their ancestors.
    The side effect for having those values is to also be racially insensitive and less politically correct which has become a new trend in the last 10 or so years.

    As someone who respects different cultures and history, I do not like the extreme mixing of peoples and assimiliation of cultures, as I feel that this kills off part of humanity and its history. I'm not against immigration, I'd even do it again myself perhaps even to the USA if I get the opportunity, but I'd like to move to a place that respects its own culture as well as the foreigners that choose to live there. In London I didn't experience this. It was a melting pot of cultures with no predominant British culture but just a city where everything goes as long as you can afford it, while crime was growing in the poorer neighbourhoods. I lived in one of the few rare 'ethnic' neighbourhoods of central London, which was Arabic, and honestly it felt like one of the few with a real flavour. But London isn't an Arabic city, so it always felt odd. It felt more like a neighbourhood of Beirut or Amman honestly than the capital of England. I liked it because I feel closer to that mentality and culture than the British one, but it's always odd being in a country and not feeling the 'local' touch. But whenever I go back to London, that's the place I choose to stay. It feels better for me.
    So London being so liberal and having this area has allowed for people like me and of course those who have shaped the neighbourhood to have a place they feel welcome. But it's not as if the rest of it is unwelcome in comparison. My favorite place to walk in London is Belgravia, which is the traditional wealthy spot, with its distinct architecture and proximity to downtown and it serves as a center for three very nice areas. But I wouldn't live there, it'd feel awkward. That's one of the few places in central London where the English are still a majority actually.

    But back to the safety paradigm. If you notice the countries with least crime, you will notice that they are almost exclusively homogenous with the exception of Switzerland which was always a multicultural country (albeit split into regions of ethnic groups) that has recently - last 20 years - become a host of migrants, mostly from other European countries.
    On top of the list you have Qatar, which is a country with Sharia Law and around 50% of the population are Arabs and it has many migrants who work there. There's also UAE which has Sharia Law, but not a very strict version, but is also a business center made up of mostly foreigners who work there.

    The list goes:
    1) Qatar (50% Arabs, 25% Indians etc)
    2) UAE (30% Arabs, 60% Indians who are mostly workers, 10% others such as Europeans, Asians and Africans)
    3) Japan (98% Japanese)
    4) Taiwan (99% Chinese)
    5) Hong Kong (92% Chinese)
    6) Georgia (the country in Caucasus of course) (87% Georgians, 5% Armenians)
    7) Armenia (98% Armenians)
    8) Switzerland (65% Germans, 18% French, 10% Italian, the rest of the minorities don't make more than 6%...)
    9) Oman (not much data available but it should be over 85% Arabs and less than 5% for the next two minorities each)
    10) Slovenia (83% Slovenes and there's a 10% of undeclared people that probably are part Slovenian and the next major group is Serbs with 2%)

    Apart from the two Arab countries that have strict laws and Switzerland which is considered the model country, I think it's a safe assumption that having homogeneity may correlate negatively with crime. You can say that it's due to the policies in place or make several other arguments, but I think we'll always end up here. You won't find a great deal of homogenous countries that have criminal issues. And they definitely won't have racial issues because only one race inhabits those lands.

    I mean Canada is made out to be some sort of crime free paradise from mainstream US media, but even Turkey and Albania who we in Greece and others in the Balkans in general consider to be countries with notorious crime, they both rank just below of Canada in the Crime Index, as in, they have less crime.

    Poverty, politics and other factors play their part, but I think homogeneity is vastly underrated in how people are mentally calmer. And it doesn't even mean it's a racial issue. Just like you don't let outsiders in your own home, the same applies to a larger extent to a nation for some of these countries.

    I mean just think of how different Japan, Korea or China would be if we you suddently added two large minority groups that make 30% of the population. Regardless of whether these new guys would be speaking the local language, it's going to cause unrest. The USA has the advantage of not carrying historical baggage so it's easier to have these demographics, but it sure ain't ideal from a population management perspective. You are always going to have these issues.

    Which is why as I said in my first post what you need mostly is respect of each other. If you respect that everyone's in this together and that the demographics of the USA reads 95% American instead 70% Caucasian, 17% Hispanic and 13% African American etc, then you'll have less friction. This way it makes it impossible to even see a hurdle when it comes to this.
    There seems to be a lot of "us vs them" mentality from all ends in the USA, it's dysfunctional and not a uniform feel of citizenry. This is what needs to be fixed to eliminate as much as possible any racial divisions.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Its not. Racism is taught. If we put a bunch of multicultural 2 year olds together they will play with eachother just the same.
    That's always been my thinking. It would be odd to be the only species I can think of where members of the species group based on appearance alone. Certainly several species favor their family over other families and there are species that choose a made based on visual cues, but I know of none that exclude based solely on appearance.

    I think those sorts of groupings in humans are learned, either by parents consciously or unconsciously teaching their children, or from the lack of kids ever seeing people who look different to make it more "strange" to them later in life. I grew up in a very integrated community, but when I moved to an all-white neighborhood later in life I suddenly was the only brown skin and it definitely felt odd. No outright racism but it felt like I was being looked at more. But inherent in humans? I don't think so. I certainly hope not.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Can you honestly tell me that if you wanted too you couldnt find examples of racism and or police brutality? If the answer is anything but yes please dont respond as our converaation would be over.
    I didnt say racism didnt exist, and I didnt say that cops never did anything wrong. I just think that racism should not be viewed as the instant explanation for every single inequality that african americans experience in society.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by likemystylez View Post
    I didnt say racism didnt exist, and I didnt say that cops never did anything wrong.
    So you say racism exists?

    Well said.

    Now tell us about how the Warriors should deal with injured players in the playoffs.
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post



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    Exactly.

    Reality is not Fake News or the result of some strained conspiracy.

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